Pensions Bill

My Lords, not for the first time, the noble Baroness, Lady Turner of Camden, has taken the words right out of my mouth in criticising the drafting of this amendment. Not many years ago, one of my colleagues on the Front Bench had a researcher who was just out of university and had debts of £30,000, which I gather was extreme then. The noble Baroness, Lady Howe of Idlicote, is nodding. As a university person—if I may put it that way—she will know that these days it is not unusual for young people to come out of university with debts of £20,000. There is no question but that those people will need individualised advice. To that extent, I have sympathy with the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott. Because the Minister has told us—at col. 956 on 17 June 2008—we know that we do not envisage the employer being engaged in giving advice. The employer, particularly the small employer, almost certainly will not have the skills at hand to give viable, accurate advice, which will have to be on a one-to-one basis. Equally, I do not think that it is for the Government to give that advice. It is for the Government to give information, as could the employer. Specialised agencies would be appropriate in individual cases, including National Debtline, to which I referred in a previous amendment, TPAS, Citizens Advice and others around the country. It is right and proper that the Government should fund those organisations properly for the enhanced role that they will indubitably have under this legislation. But that is as far as I can go. I gather that the noble Lord, Lord Oakeshott, wrote the amendment the first time around and, for all I know, wrote this one, although the noble Baroness, Lady Thomas of Winchester, spoke to it on both occasions. I do not think that we have got to the point where we can put our hand on our heart and say that this is the appropriate way to do things. I am sorry for that, but I cannot support the amendment as it is.