Children and Young Persons Bill [HL]

moved Amendment No. 1: 1: Clause 2, page 3, line 23, at end insert— ““( ) A local authority must not enter into arrangements under section 1 until it has discharged all of its duties, responsibilities and liabilities under the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 (S.I. 2006/246).”” The noble Baroness said: My Lords, I apologise for bringing this amendment back to the House, but on reading the Minister’s answer last time, one issue remains which we would like to probe further. In his reply in Grand Committee, the Minister made it clear that TUPE regulations would apply to groups of social workers transferred from local authority employment to private social work practices. He went on to say: "““The relevant staff are those assigned by the local authority to the functions that will be discharged by the provider of social work services””.—[Official Report, 8/1/08; col. GC 299.]" This implies that whether staff are transferred is a decision for the local authority, but it is also clear from our discussions about social work practices that the Government clearly wish to see such practices being started up by private individuals or companies recruiting staff not necessarily by transferring them from the particular local authority, but from outside. It is difficult to see how local authorities can do this without breaching their obligations under TUPE. If a local authority outsources social work functions, TUPE automatically applies. Staff currently employed to carry out functions which are to be outsourced must be offered the chance to transfer, and if they transfer, TUPE applies. It is only if they object to the transfer, when they are deemed to have resigned, that TUPE does not apply and no compensation is payable. I have three questions to put to the Minister. First, can he confirm that, for the pilots, these rules will apply and that where social work practices are established outside the ambit of the local authority, staff currently fulfilling the relevant functions would have the opportunity to transfer to the pilot and that TUPE would apply? Secondly, will TUPE continue to apply when the pilots cease if this model is extended more generally? Thirdly, what happens to staff who object to being transferred over to the pilot? Will they be deemed to have resigned and therefore forgo any compensation? Obviously these matters are of concern to staff who are likely to be affected by these changes, and it is important that both they and their employers, the local authorities, understand the full implications of these experiments before they are set up as pilots. I beg to move.