Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 (Amnesty Period) Order 2008

Notwithstanding the fact that we are dealing with this narrow order, I have heard the voices on the devolution of policing and criminal justice, and I will ensure that my ministerial colleagues hear them. I appreciate that not much Northern Ireland business goes through your Lordships’ House at present, and that noble Lords are relieved of the duty of listening to me drone on. However, I do realise that this issue will be up front. A message has been given tonight, and I will ensure that my ministerial colleagues are well aware of it. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, referred to the incident on 11 January, of which I am aware. I check the BBC website on Northern Ireland every day. It is curiosity, but I try to keep myself informed. It is not always possible, and I do not have the same responsibilities that I used to have, but I must be aware of things. My answer is what he would expect; acts of criminality must be dealt with through the criminal justice system. The fact of the matter is that although the Police Service of Northern Ireland did not receive any formal complaint from the people involved—the victims, let us say—I am informed that proactive investigation is ongoing and any information that has been made available is being followed up. That is inadequate, but that is the position. I agree entirely with what the noble Lord said about the slow pace of loyalist decommissioning, and I think that has generally been agreed. We agree with everything that the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, said about that. The IMC in its 17th report noted that the pace of change remains far too slow. We want to see progress, and we simply urge all paramilitaries involved to engage with the decommissioning commission. That is what it is there for. It is there to help them, and it is as simple as that. The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, asked about what the Government are doing. This is a difficult one. The Government have been engaged with loyalism over many years. Throughout that engagement, the focus has been to persuade leaders to abandon criminality and paramilitarism in favour of democracy. While progress has been slow and minimal, it has been real and genuine and, as part of our engagement, we have pressed on the leadership the need for paramilitary groups to engage constructively with the IICD. Over the past year—2007—both the UVF and the UDA have taken significant steps in that direction. As I think I said, in May 2007 the UVF issued a statement effectively saying that the war was over and that it had stood down as a military organisation. It also promised an end to all paramilitary activity and criminality. While that is progress, we have called on the UVF to actually decommission. On the UDA side, we continue to support those in the leadership who are genuinely trying to move that organisation away from violence into a peaceful existence. While decommissioning remains a matter for the Northern Ireland Office rather than for the devolved Administration, the Executive have recently agreed a programme for government that includes important objectives on building a shared future. Frankly, we are not going to get a shared future without decommissioning, but a shared future should solve a lot of problems if it is taken genuinely by a lot of organisations. There is a way forward; there is something on the table, as I have said many times before. Those who come to the table can walk away with a gain. There is no issue of victory and defeat and that language. The key here is that those who come to the table gain something from it. That remains open for those who still want to arrive at the table; there is something to gain for them in doing that. That is the lesson of history, and it is certainly the lesson in Northern Ireland. In respect of the proposed devolution of policing and justice, we believe that the target date of May 2008 is achievable, and we are working towards that date. It cannot be forced through. The issue of all the locks remain in place. I had a vision; I thought it that was a quadruple lock, but I will settle for a triple lock. I can remember it being fourfold; maybe I was thinking of two Houses. The triple lock remains in place. However, noble Lords are aware that it is the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister, the Executive and this Parliament. We do not believe that preconditions on the completion of devolution should be put in place. Indeed, the continuing confidence that would be demonstrated by the devolution of policing and justice would rightly make clear that weapons have no place in Northern Ireland. That message has to be got across to everyone. The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, asked for statistics on the current paramilitary capability. I fully accept what he said. More than 10 years ago—perhaps 30 years ago—information would have been known, I suspect, by all parties. As time passes, and individuals and situations change, one is bound to get out of touch. As part of its reports, the International Monitoring Commission has continued to illustrate paramilitary capacity. Unfortunately, this was illustrated in its most recent November report, which concluded that there were three paramilitary murders in this period. Therefore, the Government and the police have to continue to combat paramilitary activity. The IMC is required to monitor trends and the incidence of violence, which provides a good, independent measure. Clearly, there are still gangs with these weapons, but I do not think that it is possible to be any more detailed than that on the scale of them. The noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, referred to the dissident strategy and I fully accept and understand why he said what he said. But the evidence indicates that the dissident republicans have no popular support. The evidence is there because politics is working. In my role as the English Minister with responsibility for agriculture is to persuade the Scots, the Welsh and the Northern Irish to pay something towards animal welfare and animal disease control. Just before Christmas I went to Northern Ireland on one of my journeys around GB. I did various things and visited people, but I arrived early at Stormont and sat in the public gallery during Questions on education. To watch the antics going on down below was enough to bring tears to your eyes, but the fact is that they were going on there. I am not criticising. During the short time when it was my responsibility to answer for the Government in your Lordships' House, we talked about that very thing so often. I saw Question Time in Stormont. There were arguments between and within the parties. The Minister got a thumping and gave one back—in Belfast. They were going on about the schools of Northern Ireland in Northern Ireland, not here as we have been doing. Politics is working in Belfast, at whatever level. That is part of the foundation for getting that across to the population of Northern Ireland. Those dissidents cannot go around claiming that it was all a con, that it is not working and that their voice is not being heard. The fact is that there is no popular support. Our view is—