Northern Ireland Arms Decommissioning Act 1997 (Amnesty Period) Order 2008

I thank the Minister for bringing forward this order and for the information that he has given us so far. However, I would have liked to have seen a little bit of hard information. We are talking about something as serious as guns, bombs and the means of detonating bombs. I remember raising this issue well over 20 years ago in another place, when I talked about having seen what was happening in South Africa. I talked about the need for disarmament if we were to move back towards a stable society. At that time and, indeed, up until very recently, the leader of another unionist party in Northern Ireland used to think that I was quite mad to suggest disarmament. ““There’ll never be a gun or a bullet decommissioned,”” he would say. Thanks to the efforts of a lot of people but, in particular, the efforts of my friend the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, we moved in 1998 to a situation where progress has been slowly, sometimes almost imperceptibly but none the less steadily, made over the past 10 years— I sometimes cannot believe that it is 10 years since the Belfast agreement. I was an officer in the Army 30 years ago, and I knew roughly what weapons the IRA had and what weapons the loyalist paramilitaries had. We talked about the substance of the problem. Now it is almost unheard of to talk about the substance of the problem. I no longer have any idea of the extent of the arms the paramilitary organisations hold. Do we know the number of weapons still outstanding? Do we know the types of weapons? Do we know how much bomb material and detonators we are looking for? If the Minister could reassure us that the present Police Service of Northern Ireland has any idea, as we used to have, that would be some reassurance. I shall address two other issues. The first is the punishment fitting the crime. I would like the Minister to tell us how many people have been charged with the possession of weapons and how severe the punishment has been. If we create the opportunity for people to get rid of these weapons and move to a normal life, we should ensure that failure to do so is punished—and I make no apology for saying punished most harshly. How many people have been punished for possession of weapons in the past year or so, and what were the lengths of their sentences? Are they a deterrent? I have a strange feeling that the answer to that may be embarrassing. Another issue is almost out of step with the lack of progress in disarming the loyalist paramilitaries. I should have emphasised that I am talking almost exclusively about loyalist paramilitaries’ weaponry. I know that we want the weapons of other groups, such as the Real IRA and the Continuity IRA, too, but we will have to dedicate a lot of effort to finding those weapons. As my noble friend Lord Trimble has already said, the matter is being hindered by the tardiness of the loyalists. I want to make a promise—one may think that it is a threat—about the devolution of policing and justice. I will do everything in my power to dissuade my party from having anything to do with the devolution of policing and justice while the dregs of society are still in possession of these weapons. It would be totally unfair to an Assembly in Northern Ireland to put the onus on that particular body, with all its still remaining suspicions and the element of distrust that it will take years to remove. It would be nonsense to suggest that it should have responsibility for devolution and policing. I hope that the Minister will tell his friend Mr Woodward that we are not at all supportive of his constant reminder that he is moving towards this devolution in the short term. I hope that the Minister will be able to give us some substantial answers on the substance of the problem.