Serious Crime Bill [HL]

My Lords, I shall address some of the points that were raised. First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, for his contribution to the debate. It has been extremely valuable and has made us look again at the issue. We talked to ACPO about the various measures and spoke to the lead officer on the criminal use of firearms and the lead officer on the stop-and-search policy. Both of them were unhappy with the new powers that would be provided in the noble Lord’s amendment, but they felt that our new amendment was particularly valuable. They felt that it was moving things in the right way. The noble Lord asked whether all three conditions had to be met if this measure were to be enacted. The answer is yes, that is the case. In terms of the locality and the size of the area, that is affected by a Section 60 authorisation. It is an operational matter for the police and is covered in guidance in the PACE code A for guidance. I shall send the noble Lord details and ensure that the noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, receives a copy. It is clearly laid out and specified. So, for example, when the transport police use that power, the location might be a railway station and the search would be conducted in the surrounding streets. The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, asked in particular about stop-and-search. Under Section 47 of the Firearms Act, we can stop and search if there is reason to believe that someone is carrying a weapon. That issue is therefore already covered. The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, asked a couple of questions, one of which related to the length of time applicable. At present, under Section 60 an inspector must implement the measure. The initial authorisation is for 24 hours, but there can then be an extension only by a superintendent for another 24 hours. The absolute maximum is 48 hours. Perhaps I may write to the noble Lord on his other question. Part of the reason for the slight delay was negotiations with the Scottish Office because there were complications about devolved and other powers relating to firearms and knives. Amendment No. 43A would reverse the decision of another place to remove Clause 78 from the Bill. Clause 78 was incorporated into the Bill in this House as an amendment tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, and introduces powers for the police to seal off areas to search for firearms. A considerable amount of time has been spent debating this matter both in this House and in another place, and in my view the arguments are well rehearsed. We remain concerned about the total lack of safeguards in the provision and we remain convinced that this clause is both unnecessary and potentially dangerous. This does not mean that we do not agree with the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, that gun crime is very serious. Indeed, we also looked at the incidents this summer, which were very unfortunate. We agree that it is a serious matter. The clause provides a power for any constable on his own authority, and without consulting or informing a more senior officer, to seal off an area where he believes persons may be carrying firearms, although it does not specify by what means the area would be sealed off. Within that area, he may then search persons or vehicles for firearms by whatever means he considers appropriate. Again, there is no indication by what is meant by ““whatever means he considers appropriate””. This is a concern because it seems to imply a cavalier approach to stopping and searching that goes against the robust protocols and guidelines that have been developed. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, touched on some of the issues connected with civil liberties. The purpose of this extensive guidance is to ensure that any stop-and-search power is exercised fairly and proportionately in a way that does not undermine community confidence in the police. Furthermore, the clause does not specify any limits on the duration of time for which the power may be exercised or any requirement that the authorisation to use the power must be formally reviewed and extended to continue to operate. Taken together, these concerns lead me to the view that this is a reckless and unnecessary provision that could disproportionately affect certain communities, threaten community cohesion and lead to public disorder. That view was shared by all sides of the House in another place when the matter was debated in Committee. Concerns were raised about the scope and ambit of the clause as drafted and about the likely impact on civil liberties, and the clause was disagreed to without a vote. We have since given the matter some further consideration, have taken on board the concerns that we all share about weapon-enabled crime and have added the new clause that I have already described. It will extend police powers to stop and search for weapons in a way that is more measured and proportionate and will address, to a degree, the purpose envisaged by the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford. The other place agreed to the insertion of this clause, and I hope that noble Lords will also be persuaded of its worth. Therefore, while I have the greatest respect and admiration for the noble Lord and am grateful for the contribution he has made to the debate in this important area, I respectfully ask that he does not move his amendment in view of the concerns expressed by me and others and in the light of the new clause inserted by Amendment No. 42. On Question, Motion agreed to. 43: Leave out Clause 78