UK Parliament / Open data

Serious Crime Bill [HL]

Proceeding contribution from Lord West of Spithead (Labour) in the House of Lords on Wednesday, 24 October 2007. It occurred during Debate on bills on Serious Crime Bill [HL].
My Lords, I welcome the consensus over the fact that a committee of the Privy Council is looking at this very complex issue. I think that there have been seven previous major studies into it. I thank my noble and learned friend Lord Boyd of Duncansby for mentioning the difference between intelligence and criminality and, indeed, for pointing out the differences between us and other countries. It is very dangerous to say that certain behaviour goes on in other countries and that we should follow that route. We need to be extremely careful. There is no doubt whatever that in the previous studies it had become clear, normally to the party in power—whether it be Labour or Conservative—that the balance of judgment was that there was more loss and more risk to us by going down this route. I do not now want to go through all the arguments because we have agreed that the Privy Council needs to look at this, which is absolutely right. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, correctly pointed out that we are all on the same side. All of us want to achieve the same thing. We want to catch those who are trying to destroy our way of life, and we want to bring them to justice and have them punished, as they should be, for what they are trying to do. There are clearly different views about what we lose by doing certain things, and I hope that that will be teased out by the Privy Council group which is comprised of some extremely able and capable people. I am sure that that will come out. The noble Baroness, Lady Hanham, asked about timescales. I believe that the Privy Council has already started taking evidence. I shall confirm that, and I think that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd, who I know has a deeply held belief about this and certainly has notable persistence, has already spoken to them but I shall come back to the House on that. As it is so complicated, there may be some risk that the Privy Council may not be able to report as early in November as we had wanted, but we hope that it will have done the work so that it can inform discussions on the counter-terrorism Bill. There will be an opportunity to discuss this further in the Chamber. I am glad that we welcome the Privy Council group; that is the right place for this matter to be considered initially. It is an extremely complicated issue. All sorts of matters are touched on that cannot be mentioned in this Chamber. I do not use that phrase to stop us debating it but there are extremely sensitive issues and, at times, those issues are very important to this nation and need to be looked at thoroughly and in the cold light of day. On Question, Motion agreed to. 2: Clause 24, page 15, line 7, before ““not””, insert ““to discharge or”” 3: Clause 25, page 15, line 25, leave out from beginning to ““lies”” and insert ““Subject to subsection (4), an appeal under subsection (1) or (2)”” 4: Page 15, line 25, at end add- ““(4) An appeal under subsection (1) or (2) lies without the leave of the Court of Appeal if the judge who made the decision grants a certificate that the decision is fit for appeal under this section. (5) Subject to any rules of court made under section 53(1) of the Senior Courts Act 1981 (c. 54) (distribution of business between civil and criminal divisions), the criminal division of the Court of Appeal is the division which is to exercise jurisdiction in relation to an appeal under subsection (1) or (2) from a decision of the Crown Court in the exercise of its jurisdiction in England and Wales under this Part. (6) An appeal against a decision of the Court of Appeal on an appeal to that court under subsection (1) or (2) may be made to the Supreme Court by any person who was a party to the proceedings before the Court of Appeal. (7) An appeal under subsection (6) lies only with the leave of the Court of Appeal or the Supreme Court. (8) Such leave must not be granted unless- (a) it is certified by the Court of Appeal that a point of law of general public importance is involved in the decision; and (b) it appears to the Court of Appeal or (as the case may be) the Supreme Court that the point is one which ought to be considered by the Supreme Court. (9) The Secretary of State may for the purposes of this section by order make provision corresponding (subject to any specified modifications) to that made by or under an enactment and relating to- (a) appeals to the Court of Appeal under Part 1 of- (i) the Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (c. 19); or (ii) the Criminal Appeal (Northern Ireland) Act 1980 (c. 47); (b) appeals from any decision of the Court of Appeal on appeals falling within paragraph (a); or (c) any matter connected with or arising out of appeals falling within paragraph (a) or (b). (10) An order under subsection (9) may, in particular, make provision about the payment of costs. (11) The power to make an appeal to the Court of Appeal under subsection (1)(a) operates instead of any power for the person who is the subject of the order to make an appeal against a decision of the Crown Court in relation to a serious crime prevention order by virtue of- (a) section 9 or 10 of the Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (c. 19); or (b) section 8 of the Criminal Appeal (Northern Ireland) Act 1980 (c. 47). (12) Section 33(3) of the Criminal Appeal Act 1968 (c. 19) (limitation on appeal from criminal division of the Court of Appeal: England and Wales) does not prevent an appeal to the Supreme Court under subsection (6) above.”” 5: Clause 28, page 16, line 28, after ““to””, insert ““- (a)”” 6: Page 16, line 29, leave out ““as if it were”” and insert ““; and (b) the company's winding up; as it applies in relation to”” 7: Page 16, line 30, leave out ““(petition for”” and insert ““for the winding up of a company and the company's winding up (”” 8: Page 16, line 43, leave out ““has effect”” and insert ““applies for the purposes of this section”” 9: Page 17, line 1, leave out ““Secretary of State”” and insert ““appropriate Minister”” 10: Page 17, line 2, leave out ““he”” and insert ““that person”” 11: Page 17, line 2, after ““appropriate,””, insert ““in relation”” 12: Page 17, line 3, at end insert ““and the relevant body's winding up”” 13: Page 17, line 9, at end insert- ““( ) No petition may be presented to, or order to wind up made by, a court in Scotland by virtue of this section in respect of a company, partnership or relevant body whose estate may be sequestrated under the Bankruptcy (Scotland) Act 1985 (c. 66).”” 14: Page 17, line 22, at beginning insert- ““““appropriate Minister”” means- (a) in relation to a relevant body falling within paragraphs (a) to (c) of the definition of ““relevant body”” below, the Treasury; and (b) in relation to any other relevant body, the Secretary of State;”” 15: Page 17, line 28, leave out ““Scotland or”” 16: Page 17, line 31, after ““registered;””, insert- ““““partnership”” does not include a relevant body;”” 17: Page 17, line 37, after ““society;””, insert- ““(ca) a limited liability partnership;”” 18: Clause 29, page 18, line 8, after ““to””, insert ““- (a) ”” 19: Page 18, line 8, leave out ““as if it were”” and insert ““; and (b) the company's winding up; as it applies in relation to”” 20: Page 18, line 9, leave out ““(petition for”” and insert ““for the winding up of a company and the company's winding up (”” 21: Page 18, line 22, leave out ““has effect”” and insert ““applies for the purposes of this section”” 22: Page 18, line 24, leave out ““Secretary of State”” and insert ““appropriate Minister”” 23: Page 18, line 25, leave out ““he”” and insert ““that person”” 24: Page 18, line 25, after ““appropriate,””, insert ““in relation”” 25: Page 18, line 26, at end insert ““and the relevant body's winding up”” 26: Page 18, line 45, at beginning insert- ““““appropriate Minister”” means- (a) in relation to a relevant body falling within paragraph (a) or (b) of the definition of ““relevant body”” below, the Treasury; and (b) in relation to any other relevant body, the Secretary of State;”” 27: Page 19, line 9, after ““registered;””, insert- ““““partnership”” does not include a relevant body;”” 28: Page 19, line 15, after ““society;””, insert- ““(ca) a limited liability partnership;”” 29: Insert the following new Clause- ““Powers to wind up: supplementary (1) The Secretary of State may by order make such modifications as he considers appropriate to the application of- (a) the Insolvency Act 1986 (c. 45) by virtue of section 28(2); or (b) the Insolvency (Northern Ireland) Order 1989 (S.I. 1989/2405 (N.I.19)) by virtue of section 29(2). (2) Any modifications made by virtue of subsection (1) are in addition to the modifications made by section 28(3) and (4) or (as the case may be) section 29(3) and (4). (3) The Secretary of State may by order make such consequential or supplementary provision, applying with or without modifications any provision made by or under an enactment, as he considers appropriate in connection with section 28(2) to (4) or 29(2) to (4). (4) An order made by virtue of section 28(5) or (6), section 29(5) or (6) or subsection (1) above may, in particular, contain consequential or supplementary provision applying, with or without modifications, any provision made by or under an enactment.”” 30: Insert the following new Clause- ““Providers of information society services (1) A serious crime prevention order may not include terms which restrict the freedom of a service provider who is established in an EEA state other than the United Kingdom to provide information society services in relation to an EEA state unless the conditions in subsections (2) and (3) are met. (2) The condition in this subsection is that the court concerned considers that the terms- (a) are necessary for the objective of protecting the public by preventing, restricting or disrupting involvement in- (i) in the case of an order in England and Wales, serious crime in England and Wales; and (ii) in the case of an order in Northern Ireland, serious crime in Northern Ireland; (b) relate to an information society service which prejudices that objective or presents a serious and grave risk of prejudice to it; and (c) are proportionate to that objective. (3) The conditions in this subsection are that- (a) a law enforcement officer has requested the EEA state in which the service provider is established to take measures which the law enforcement officer considers to be of equivalent effect under the law of the EEA state to the terms and the EEA state has failed to take the measures; and (b) a law enforcement officer has notified the Commission of the European Communities and the EEA state of- (i) the intention to seek an order containing the terms; and (ii) the terms. (4) It does not matter for the purposes of subsection (3) whether the request or notification is made before or after the making of the application for the order. (5) A serious crime prevention order may not include terms which impose liabilities on service providers of intermediary services so far as the imposition of those liabilities would result in a contravention of Article 12, 13 or 14 of the E-Commerce Directive (various protections for service providers of intermediary services). (6) A serious crime prevention order may not include terms which impose a general obligation on service providers of intermediary services covered by Articles 12, 13 and 14 of the E-Commerce Directive- (a) to monitor the information which they transmit or store when providing those services; or (b) actively to seek facts or circumstances indicating illegal activity when providing those services. (7) For the purposes of this section- (a) a service provider is established in a particular EEA state if he effectively pursues an economic activity using a fixed establishment in that EEA state for an indefinite period and he is a national of an EEA state or a company or firm mentioned in Article 48 of the EEC Treaty; (b) the presence or use in a particular place of equipment or other technical means of providing an information society service does not, of itself, constitute the establishment of a service provider; (c) where it cannot be determined from which of a number of establishments a given information society service is provided, that service is to be regarded as provided from the establishment where the service provider has the centre of his activities relating to the service; and references to a person being established in an EEA state are to be read accordingly. (8) In this section- ““the E-Commerce Directive”” means Directive 2000/31/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 8 June 2000 on certain legal aspects of information society services, in particular electronic commerce, in the Internal Market (Directive on electronic commerce); ““information society services””- (a) has the meaning given in Article 2(a) of the E-Commerce Directive (which refers to Article 1(2) of Directive 98/34/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 22 June 1998 laying down a procedure for the provision of information in the field of technical standards and regulations); and (b) is summarised in recital 17 of the E-Commerce Directive as covering ““any service normally provided for remuneration, at a distance, by means of electronic equipment for the processing (including digital compression) and storage of data, and at the individual request of a recipient of a service””; ““intermediary services”” means an information society service which- (a) consists in the provision of access to a communication network or the transmission in a communication network of information provided by a recipient of the service; (b) consists in the transmission in a communication network of information which- (i) is provided by a recipient of the service; and (ii) is the subject of automatic, intermediate and temporary storage which is solely for the purpose of making the onward transmission of the information to other recipients of the service at their request more efficient; or (c) consists in the storage of information provided by a recipient of the service; ““recipient””, in relation to a service, means any person who, for professional ends or otherwise, uses an information society service, in particular for the purposes of seeking information or making it accessible; and ““service provider”” means a person providing an information society service. (9) For the purposes of paragraph (a) of the definition of ““intermediary services””, the provision of access to a communication network and the transmission of information in a communication network includes the automatic, intermediate and transient storage of the information transmitted so far as the storage is for the sole purpose of carrying out the transmission in the network. (10) Subsection (9) does not apply if the information is stored for longer than is reasonably necessary for the transmission.”” 31: Clause 35, page 23, line 9, leave out subsections (4) and (5) and insert- ““(4) The Crown Court, when exercising its jurisdiction in England and Wales under this Part, is a criminal court for the purposes of Part 7 of the Courts Act 2003 (c. 39) (procedure rules and practice directions).””

About this proceeding contribution

Reference

695 c1081-6 

Session

2006-07

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber
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