Serious Crime Bill [HL]

My Lords, I was unavoidably absent from the discussions that took place in this House in February and April of this year, although I have read the reports carefully. I join in paying tribute to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd. I welcome the fact that a committee of privy counsellors is being set up, and I have no doubt that the matter will be thoroughly considered. Having said that, I fear very much that there will be a delay, which can be avoided, and that, even if a firm conclusion is arrived at fairly swiftly, there will still be a long delay before the legislative position is dealt with. I say that without in any way being churlish towards those who hold strong views in this matter. This is an issue where the protagonists on both sides seek exactly the same end. In each case, one wishes to protect the efficacy of the agencies of counter-crime and counter-terrorism, as well as a system which is as just as possible in a practicable way. Having said that, and with great respect to those who take a different view, from the very first I have thought that the argument is extremely one-sided in that all the evidence and available facts are on one side. It is not as though we are taking a course different from that in many other countries. This system has long been employed by Canada, Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and the United States of America. In June this year, Sir Ken Macdonald gave evidence to the Joint Committee on Human Rights. Speaking of the discussions that he had had with representatives from those countries, he said: "““We have spoken, as I think you probably know, a great deal to colleagues abroad, in the United States, Canada and Australia particularly, who have systems closest to ours. The message we have had from all of them is that it would make an enormous difference””." In other words, the use of intercept communication such as this is central to combating crime and, indeed, to the just disposal of criminal cases. In those circumstances, I should be grateful if the Minister could give an undertaking to the House that the decision will be arrived at swiftly and that, if there is a decision to implement, as I very much hope and trust there will be, again, it will be implemented without delay. The onus is on those who stand against the United Kingdom taking the same attitude as other countries in the world which have tried and proven the system to be efficacious and just.