Government: Draft Legislative Programme

My Lords, this has been an interesting and mostly constructive debate. I assure noble Lords who have taken part that, as part of the whole intent of producing a draft programme, the Government will listen carefully to noble Lords’ comments today. I say to the noble Lords, Lord Shutt and Lord Marlesford, that of course I understand that there will be very close observation of the eventual Queen’s Speech to see the impact of the discussions and debates over the next few months. The Government recognise that that will be a test. This is the first year in which this has been done and I assure noble Lords that we wish to continue, to enhance and to build on this process. We will look at the timing of such a programme in future years in the light of the evidence that we see over the next few months. The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, talked about setting A-level tests for all of us in the summer. I have a very long test to do and I hope that my noble friend Lord Wedderburn does not mark it because I suspect that I would not come up to muster. Clearly, on the principle of publishing a draft Queen’s Speech, my noble friend Lord Haskel was right when he talked about the benefits already of having a Pre-Budget Report. It indicates the transparency in a positive way of helping to engage and helping the Government to reach decisions. I am sure that we will see the benefit of that in future Queen’s Speeches. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, talked about the problems of reaching and getting agreement on the broad shape of the legislative programme and how it is to be dealt with in Parliament. I would say on behalf of noble Lords that on matters in the House of Lords, I have always found them to be wholly constructive in enabling us to get legislation considered in the most appropriate way. I cannot really comment on another place, but I can assure the noble Lord that the Government will wish to have discussions in the usual channels about ensuring that your Lordships' House has ample opportunity to discuss the matters raised in today’s debate and, more generally, how we deal with legislation in the future. The noble Lord asked me about reports being dead. I suppose that that was yet another reference from his Front Bench to the Hunt report. I already have acknowledged the excellence of the Cunningham report. Life has moved on. But part of the Labour Peers’ report, which I had the pleasure to chair, was about improving and enhancing the way legislation is dealt with in your Lordships' House. We have opportunities to look at how we can enhance the scrutiny of legislation and I look forward to discussions on that in the context of the Green Paper on constitutional reform. I understand the point made by the noble Lord, Lord De Mauley, about the natural ebb and flow of the parliamentary year, and there is no doubt that it certainly concentrates minds. As we have seen in the past week leading up to the Summer Recess, agreement can be reached on contentious legislation. On the other hand, the period of carryover has been welcome because it allows greater flexibility in dealing with legislation, and I hope that we shall be able to continue with it. I welcome the positive response of noble Lords to the Green Paper on constitutional reform. The noble Lord, Lord Tyler, welcomed it and I want to assure him that these are not just warm words. We see this as a major programme of immense importance in the revitalisation of Parliament and our democratic institutions, and we want very much to encourage widespread debate about it both within Parliament and outside. The noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, stressed the importance of early legislation on the Civil Service and on ratifying treaties. I understand his keenness for those, but there has to be a great deal of discussion before we bring forward legislation. I understand also the comments of a number of noble Lords about the wish for pre-legislative scrutiny. Again, that is noted. I cannot give a commitment today, but I appreciate the importance of ensuring that if we are to reach as much consensus as possible, which in the case of constitutional reform must be our aim, the benefit of pre-legislative scrutiny is clear and the point well taken. The noble Lord, Lord Norton, made some apposite comments about constitutional change. His major point was essentially that although one can make a series of changes, the question is how they impact on the whole. He then invited me to set out my definitive view of where the British constitution should finish up at the end of this process. He will not be surprised if I rather duck that one, but I understand the substance of what he has said and I certainly will reflect on it. My noble friend Lord Borrie made some important points about the role of Parliament when it comes to war and international treaties. I want to underscore the central tenet of the Green Paper, which is to see the role of Parliament enhanced. I want to reflect on what is set out in the Green Paper on judicial appointments. I want to stress that the comment was directed at the residual role of the Lord Chancellor in judicial appointments. The point had already been made in the paper that much of the role has already been transferred to the independent Judicial Appointments Commission. The comment about Parliament therefore needs to be taken in that context. But of course I echo strongly the remarks of my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice on the importance of the independence of the judiciary. Almost all noble Lords commented on the issue of pre-legislative scrutiny. I believe that the noble Lord, Lord Norton, thinks that we could have made more progress. We have moved forward on this, and I certainly do not agree that there has been a retreat from our original intentions. There is no question but that we see pre-legislative scrutiny as an important part of parliamentary scrutiny and we will be making a further Statement about the position of further Bills in the future. However, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Norton, about the potential of post-legislative scrutiny. Having taken quite a few Bills through Parliament myself, I have no doubt whatever that it is important to learn lessons. The noble Lord referred to the report of the Law Commission on this issue. I cannot give him an exact date for the government response, but I can assure him that we are giving it a great deal of attention. The noble Lord, Lord Shutt, commented on quangos. He has totted up the number of quangos he thinks the legislation would produce if it were all to be enacted as set out in the draft paper. I should just remind him that this has to be looked at in the context of the drive to reduce the number of quangos which has been running for the past few years. I want to refer him to the arm’s-length body review in the Department of Health which made a drastic reduction in the number and cost of public bodies. On the central/local relationship, I would just say that while I do not wish to enter the private world of the debates on the Local Government and Public Involvement in Health Bill which your Lordships have been enjoying over the past few weeks, nonetheless the duty of partnership, the leading role of local authorities and the enhanced part played by local area agreements seem to mark an important way forward towards enhancing devolution. From my brief experience the second time around at the Department of Health, I should tell the noble Lord that there had been a considerable move away from long lists of central targets to a genuine effort to devolve to the local level. We need to continue that. I had thought that after last week, we might return to the issue of Lords reform, but only two comments were made on it. I wish that my noble friend Lord Brooke had been with me during the debate because it felt slightly lonely on the two Front Benches. My noble friend is right to say that we must take account of the free vote of the House of Commons for both an 80 per cent and a 100 per cent elected Chamber. That is the context in which the Government are now taking forward House of Lords reform, and it is the context in which the cross-party working group is meeting. On the question of the selection of candidates, in the end that is a matter primarily for the political parties themselves and will reflect the electoral system that is eventually chosen for election to your Lordships’ House. However, I agree with my noble friend that these are extremely important matters. I pay tribute to the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Worcester. I think that this must be his final speech in your Lordships’ House. He has made a wonderful contribution. He along with a number of other noble Lords remarked that this Government have put too much legislation through Parliament. It is interesting to note the research carried out by the House of Commons Library which shows that if anything, the number of Acts passed has been declining over the past 20 to 30 years. Between 1987-88 and 1996-97, an average of 40 government Bills were passed in each Session. That has fallen to 35 under the current Government. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, raised the important question of the role of the Attorney-General. A Written Ministerial Statement has been published today. However, I can tell him that my noble and learned friend Lady Scotland is anxious for the widest possible engagement on the very important matters raised by him and in the document.