Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

My Lords, I am very grateful for the spirit in which noble Lords have taken forward our debates on these amendments put down by the Government in another place. I have already congratulated the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, on his award, which he rightly deserved. I was up against him for it but I am very pleased that he won it. It is also fair to say that we have been at great pains, in all our deliberations, to ensure that noble Lords who have quite reasonably believed that this is a point of great principle have not felt that either the Government or I, representing the Government, have seen it as anything else. I make it clear that those who feel strongly that the Bill is important were well represented by noble Lords who felt equally strongly. I think particularly of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, but also of noble Lords from across your Lordships’ House. I was delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, said that we had reached a very satisfactory conclusion, for I hope that today will mark the end of this part of the process and the beginning of what we need to do next. The noble Lord’s disappointment about the timetable was echoed in particular by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. I know that it was felt that, although my right honourable friend the Secretary of State had put a timetable on this, that was some considerable time away. I hope that my words about an ambitious timetable of three years, which my right honourable friend the Secretary of State gave me to use today, will be well recognised as being what the Government seek to reach. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, also talked about discussion outside your Lordships’ House. I want to reiterate that one ambition of mine, as Leader of the House, is that we deal with many of these matters away from the Floor of the House, so that when they come to your Lordships we have had the benefit of such debate and discussion as can take us through some difficulties and, I hope, to some kind of conclusion. That will not always happen, but in my experience it has been a good way to conduct our business. I pay tribute to all noble Lords who have given me their time in order for me to understand fully their concerns and to enable me and others to reflect them in discussion with my right honourable friend and others. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, is disappointed, but he will agree that the issue of deaths in custody will not be addressed by this legislation alone. Indeed, our debates during the passage of this Bill and on other legislation have shown the importance of trying to tackle effectively situations that may be about suicide or worse. The way to approach this legislation is to see it as part of a jigsaw puzzle, not the answer in itself. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, mentioned interim plans. We have talked already about the annual report to your Lordships’ House and to another place. Discussions will begin, and I am mindful that noble Lords may wish to participate in those, at least initially; it is up to your Lordships how far to take that forward. I expect noble Lords to continue to debate this through questions in your Lordships’ House and in the other place and to represent the views of this House through making contact with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State, not least through my noble friend Lord Hunt of Kings Heath, to whom the implementation of this will now fall in his capacity as a Minister. We could not do any better than to rest with him on that. We have put this in the Bill in this way partly to enable us, as I indicated, to stage implementation so that, as we are ready, we can come in even more quickly than my right honourable friend has indicated. I hope that noble Lords will see that as a useful way to address, at least in part, their disappointment and concern. I say to the right reverend Prelate that we have discussed the issue of being risk-averse many times in my dealings with this legislation. The second time that this legislation was received in your Lordships’ House—in ping-pong, as we call it—we discussed those feelings on health and safety questions. I will not go into those again; suffice it to say that I was not trying to suggest that the people on the ground floor, if I may put it like that, within the Prison Service or the police would be less likely to wish to see this legislation or, indeed, to participate in what will happen. We simply have to be mindful of the impact that any new legislation has on those on the front line who must implement it, and to be sure that we have set it out correctly and properly. Noble Lords will know that that applies in a whole range of areas, not least here. That was really the point that I was seeking to make, but clearly I did not make very well. I hope that we are done with the Bill. There will be a great deal of support for this piece of legislation to make it on to the statute book. I am grateful to noble Lords, today and on other occasions, as well as outside the Chamber. I hope that the noble Lord will withdraw his Motion so that we may now put this on to the statute book and move forward to the next phase.