Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

My Lords, I beg to move Motion A, That the House do not insist on its Amendments Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6 and 10, or on its Amendments Nos. 10P and 10Q proposed in lieu of Commons Amendments Nos. 10K to 10N, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 10R, 10S, 10T, 10U, 10V, 10X, 10Y, 10Z and 10AA in lieu of Lords Amendments Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6, 10, 10P and 10Q. We turn to the discussion of fresh amendments sent to us from another place. It might be helpful if I say a few words about the deadline for considering the Bill. The noble Lord, Lord Hunt, and other noble Lords raised the question of the deadline in our previous discussions and noble Lords will be aware from previous debates that, under the procedures of the other place, proceedings on a Bill that has been carried over from the last session—as was the case for this Bill—must be complete within 12 months of the Bill being introduced unless that period is extended. That period has been extended, by a week, to provide the other place and your Lordships’ House with further time to consider the very significant further amendments that the Government have brought forward. The nub of concern with the Government’s amendments so far has been that they would leave a discretion whether to extend the offence to custody. The further amendments tabled by the Government remove that doubt by extending the relevant duties of care in the Bill to include duties owed to those in custody. In a nutshell, the amendments make custody an integral part of the offence. I hope that noble Lords will agree that that is a very significant change. This is achieved by Amendment No. 10R, which also sets out a wide definition of custodial environments that will be covered. This comprehensively addresses the forms of custody identified in the amendments proposed in your Lordships’ House. There is also a power, subject to the affirmative procedure, to amend the definition to include further forms of detention. This does not allow the definition as currently set out to be restricted or for exceptions to that definition to be made—I think that your Lordships will agree that those are important points—but it provides some flexibility to add further forms of custody or analogous circumstances if required. I am aware that the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, as chairman of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, was concerned to know what this power might be used to cover. I am grateful that he spent a few minutes with me earlier to explain his concerns. Examples might be facilities used for custody by Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs or detention in penal military establishments. There might be a case for extending to premises such as approved probation or bail hostels. However, there is no intention to extend this to areas that do not involve any forms of custody or detention in premises designed for holding people. That, at least in part, addresses his concerns, and I have already indicated that the Government will write to him in his capacity as chairman of the Delegated Powers Committee to ensure that all his concerns are covered. The commencement of the new offence in respect of custody will be subject to an affirmative order. That is provided by Amendment No. 10Z. I will return to the question of timing in a moment. However, there has been widespread recognition of the need to provide some delay before this aspect of the legislation is commenced. Providing for commencement by affirmative order explicitly recognises that intention. These amendments bridge a gap that has troubled many in this House by moving from a discretion to extend the offence to custody to making this an integral part of the offence. That is a significant movement by the Government and I very much hope that these amendments will receive support from your Lordships’ House. I welcome the fact that the amendment to my Motion in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, does not seek to disagree with the amendments. I turn now to the question of timing. In providing for custody to be an integral part of the Bill, the Government are starting a clear process towards extending the offence to custody. However, as I and other noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Rosser and Lord Lea, have explained on previous occasions, there are complexities in extending the new offence to custody. It is important that this process is managed properly in consultation with the services that will be affected. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice explained in the other place last week that: "““There are anxieties in the police and the Prison Service that unless they have time to understand fully the extent of these obligations and take steps to implement them, the services—not at a senior level, but at a lower level—will start to become risk averse, and that could have many serious consequences””.—[Official Report, Commons, 18/7/07; col. 333.]" Against that background, the Secretary of State went on to suggest that he considered that a reasonable delay would be between five and seven years. Concerns have been raised that that sort of timetable does not provide the necessary impetus to take matters forward, and the Government are prepared to recognise and to respond to those concerns. For that reason, I give noble Lords an assurance that the sort of timetable that the Government will aim for will be the three-year period from commencement that the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, suggests in his amendment to the Motion. However, I say that on the basis that noble Lords should not underestimate the difficulties facing the Prison Service and the police. There is very considerable pressure on the capacity of the Prison Service, as noble Lords know. Now is not the time to debate why that is the case and the measures the Government are taking to address those pressures. However, it must be recognised that there are serious pressures and demands imposed on staff, and that the Prison Service has a difficult responsibility for managing those pressures in a way that is safe for staff and inmates. We should also not underestimate the considerable challenges the police face day to day in managing people coming into police custody. Noble Lords will be aware that because of the condition and demeanour of many of these people, this is a dynamic and occasionally volatile environment in which it is difficult to entirely eliminate risk. I know that the Prison Service, through the custody improvement programme and the publication of guidance on safer detention last year, is taking its responsibilities for those in its custody very seriously. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice said that there would be annual reports on progress towards commencing this part of the Bill, and there will be significant developments between now and when a report is produced next year. The review that the noble Lord, Lord Carter of Coles, is undertaking on the supply and demand of prison places will have reported, and assessments will be available of the progress that police forces are making towards complying with the safer detention guidance issued in February last year. The exact timetable must be subject to further evaluation in light of these developments. It may therefore look more like the five years that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice referred to. However, I give the assurance that the Government will start out on this process with a timetable of three years in mind. In doing so, we will give careful consideration to the possibility of staged implementation. I very much hope that earlier progress could be made on some of the various forms of custody listed in Amendment No. 10R. On that basis, I hope that noble Lords will feel able to support the Bill as it now stands. Writing a timetable into a Bill will set this in stone. I hope I have made it clear that there are significant issues about the extension of the offence, and that we are at the start of a process of applying the offence to custody. I have provided what I hope is real reassurance, setting an ambitious timetable that the Government will work towards. But, as noble Lords will recognise, we must be able to assess progress against that and see where things stand, and the annual report will enable noble Lords to see progress to date. I therefore hope that noble Lords will not seek to act further and fix the timetable in legislation. I very much hope that we are today at the end of our debates on this legislation. I am now in a position to put the Bill on the statute book. The Government have offered considerable further movement, and custody will now appear as an integral part of the offence. I have offered assurances about the timetable for commencing that part of the legislation. I hope your Lordships’ House will accept these commitments and not send the Bill back to another place. Moved, Motion A, That the House do not insist on its Amendments Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6 and 10, or on its Amendments Nos. 10P and 10Q proposed in lieu of Commons Amendments Nos. 10K to 10N, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 10R, 10S, 10T, 10U, 10V, 10X, 10Y, 10Z and 10AA in lieu of Lords Amendments Nos. 2, 3, 5, 6, 10, 10P and 10Q.—(Baroness Ashton of Upholland.)