Secure Training Centre (Amendment) Rules 2007

My Lords, I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, will not be embarrassed by an excess of prelatical support. There is something very attractive to Bishops about a Lord temporal proposing a Prayer, but that is not my reason for standing up. First, I reassure the Minister and the noble Lord, Lord Warner, that this is not a debate between people who think that looking after disturbed young people is easy and those who think it difficult. This is not a debate involving people who think that they could do it better. I am among those in this House who realise that such a task would be very defeating and would provoke emotions in myself that might well lead to the unacceptable use of violence, were I not myself restrained by a regime over which Parliament ultimately has jurisdiction. Secondly, the House should acknowledge an enormous debt to the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, for his consistency and measured raising of the issues. His report was probably the most difficult read I ever had while bishop to Her Majesty’s Prisons. I could not manage it at a sitting, frankly finding it too distressing. However, if that was one of the most difficult things to happen at that time, one of the most hopeful was the restructuring of Ministries, and the appointment of the Minister who will answer this evening, as real opportunities for opening up a different direction and a view of justice that is fundamentally hopeful. Also, in the context of this debate, the use of ““clarification”” about these rules is positively Orwellian. I do not wish clarification—which is certainly necessary—to be used as a cover. Like all noble Lords, I will be listening with great care to what the Minister says about what further clarification—real clarification of boundaries—he will offer as reassurance to the House. I understand that it will be for the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, to decide whether those government responses are adequate to the Prayer that he is proposing, or whether he needs to press the matter. However, I am pretty disquieted even by the thought that these rules will be on the statute book, because one of the things that statutory frameworks do is to create ethos, climates of opinion or cultures. While it may be true that you can clarify those rules, say what you really meant and produce boundaries around them, the fact is that we shall have in this country rules that say this kind of thing about the possibility of using physical restraint where necessary for the purpose of restoring order. That not only introduces an element of subjectivity into the lives of these young people, but opens the way for ““rogue officers”” to feel that there is a sneaking level of public support for them doing what we believe to be unacceptable. The report of the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, gives us ample information. His speech this evening and those of other noble Lords and the noble Baroness, Lady Stern, give us ample evidence. I am not sure what a further review can be expected to unearth—I would be happiest if these rules were annulled. If that is not to be, I hope that the reassurances offered by the Minister will be sufficiently strong really to reassure.