Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

My Lords, I thank the Leader of the House for again setting out the Government’s position with such clarity and conviction. All noble Lords respect her and the case that she represents, and the Government have clearly put their case. However, the comments of noble Lords have yet again demonstrated the wisdom, humanity and experience that exist on all sides of this House. People will look at what this House has been doing and read all the evidence, including that quoted in another place—and all the evidence is there—and ask, ““When? When are you going to do this?””. I do not think that people will understand why we have not gone as far as our duty requires of us by insisting on a firm date and a commitment to which people can relate. A date has been referred to in connection with the Prison Service, for example, in order to help it work out what it needs to do and by when, and the same applies to government. That applies also to the discussions mentioned by my noble friend Lord Bledisloe. I know that the noble Lords, Lord Hunt, Lord Lee, Lord Dholakia, and others would be only too happy to take part in such discussions. So much the better if the Prison Officers’ Association, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, were included. I welcome wider discussion because many people are involved. Yet again, the issues could not have been stated more clearly. My noble friend Lord Dear spoke about the police and my noble friend Lord Elystan-Morgan made a most moving contribution about the duties of this House. I am ashamed to say that the only contribution that I found myself disagreeing with was, yet again, that of the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, who has totally misunderstood the purpose of what we are doing. We are not seeking to reduce deaths in custody; we are seeking to improve the management of custody so that unnecessary deaths do not occur. That is not the same thing at all. As for talks on the culture, mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, my conversation last night with the Secretary of State went back to discussions about management that took place eight years ago. In those years a number of people have died unnecessarily in the care of the state. I fully understand where we have got to—the Leader of the House has so clearly explained where we stand. However, I was comforted by the words of the Secretary of State last night. Although he mentioned that our discussions were off the record, his final remark was: ““Nothing is dead until the last day””. I therefore think it right to test the opinion of the House. On Question, Whether the said Motion (No. A1) shall be agreed to? Their Lordships divided: Contents, 186; Not-Contents, 157. Motion A, as amended, agreed to.