Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

My Lords, I begin by saying that I absolutely understand the strength of feeling of the noble Lord, Lord Hunt of Wirral, and pay tribute to him for it. He has personally been committed for a very long time to the issues raised in the Bill. I sense the passion with which he made his commitment. My ambition is that he should not need to carry out the commitment; I want to get the Bill on to the statute book. We are absolutely in the same place in terms of the principle. The noble Lord, Lord Elystan-Morgan, raised the essence of the principle. He will know from reading our previous debates in Hansard that that is well understood; we are discussing or negotiating—or whatever word noble Lords prefer—the means to the end and not the end in itself. The difficulty that we have had in these final stages has been that the Government must sit in one place and your Lordships in another in terms of how we get there. I shall try to deal with some of the specific points that noble Lords have raised. I again acknowledge the strength of feeling and the principled nature of the concerns. We have talked about the Prison Officers’ Association and the police. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, and my noble friend Lord Lea of Crondall were at the same lunch today, although it felt like a rather different lunch when I listened to what was being said. It was important for the Prison Officers’ Association to talk to parliamentarians; I find it difficult to believe that it was the first such occasion. It was an important occasion. It is important to recognise that the Prison Officers’ Association and the Association of Chief Police Officers will have views. I know that the Prison Officers’ Association is already in discussion with my right honourable friend the Secretary of State on a variety of matters. I have no doubt that this issue will be part of its agenda. It was not previously part of its agenda; as noble Lords who participated throughout the entirety of this Bill know, it was not the Government’s initial intention to have this issue in the Bill. Therefore, the Government were not in discussion with it during the 10 years since we committed to put this in the Bill. As it is now in the Bill—through an order-making power—those discussions will take place. I hope that answers the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Lee. The noble Lord, Lord Dear, read out extracts from an undated letter—we think it was around 11 May—which I do not have. However, I would worry if the noble Lord felt that it was on the basis of a single sheet of A4 that my right honourable friends the Home Secretary and the Minister of Justice made their decisions. However much the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Alloway, would prefer not to have government by Ministers, none the less, we have a responsibility to consult those who will be affected by legislation and to ensure that we take into account their views in a series of ways, not merely by correspondence but also, as is more likely, by ongoing discussion. Then, as Ministers, we have to reach a conclusion on the basis of the information and evidence presented and we have to behave responsibly on the back of that. That is what my right honourable friends have done. They will have considered properly and correctly not only the representations from the organisations mentioned today, but also those from other organisations, other colleagues, officials, legal advisers and so on. They will have brought together those views and given them full consideration. The noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, and others asked about the role of the Government as regards extending the date. It will be for another place to decide; it is not in my hands at all. I am not seeking to wave a paper tiger. Noble Lords are right: it is possible to extend, but the difficulty in considering extension is that it is in order to achieve something. I have to make it clear to noble Lords on all sides of the House that I can see no further movement. The Government have compromised; they have listened; they have identified the issues that are of concern to noble Lords; and I do not see anything else that will be done. Extending time for this important piece of legislation would be in order to achieve something—that is the point I was trying to make. I am not waving paper tigers or making threats, but I am simply saying that the purpose is to achieve something. I do not wish to give the impression that, if another place chose to extend it, that would be because the Government wished to move or change their view. We have debated this matter extremely well. Noble Lords have asked the Government to think again and they have thought again. Noble Lords asked the Government to think again especially in the light of the fact that there were to be new Ministers and a new Administration within a Labour Government who might have different views and who might wish to look at advice differently with fresh eyes. My right honourable friends have done exactly what noble Lords asked them to do. They have looked again; they have consulted again; they have thought about it again; they have talked to each other again; and as my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Justice did, they have talked to the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham. There is no question but that the Government have done what this House has every right to expect them to do. One further point is the way in which legislation is conducted, certainly by me. I smiled as the noble Lord, Lord Elton, picked up on what the noble Viscount, Lord Bledisloe, said, implying that unless it is in the Bill it will never happen. That may have happened in the noble Lord’s Government; but it is not happening in my Government. We make commitments that we believe are important and that we wish to see through, but we make commitments in the spirit of understanding. We have to do them properly; we have to do them in a considered manner; and, where this Bill makes very radical, new changes, we have to take them into account and ensure that they are done properly and effectively in the area of public policy. That is what we have sought to do.