Regulatory Reform (Deer) (England and Wales) Order 2007

I am most grateful to the noble Baronesses, and in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Byford. As I said last week, she has brought elegance and charm to the Front Bench, which I suspect her successor will not be able to do. That is a very sexist remark for which I make no apology. The noble Baroness mentioned the cost attributed to road accidents, which is a very serious issue. I have been astonished to see the range of figures; there seems to be a minimum of £14 million. I freely admit, as I told officials this morning, that occasionally I see the signs warning drivers to beware deer, but I pay very little attention because I do not expect any deer to come out on the road. However, they clearly do, and the accidents are very serious. I understand that work is taking place to look at signage around the country, because there is a cost in all kinds of ways, as one can imagine. There must be good warning of night-time culling so that there is no confusion among people about what is happening in their locality. On the noble Baroness’s first point, the process brought about by the Regulatory Reform Act 2001, inside government, is incredibly lengthy. It takes the best part of two to three years to put a reform order through the Whitehall and parliamentary process, and I suspect that, as it started that way under the 2001 Act, that is how it would complete. The Legislative and Regulatory Reform Act 2006 came into effect in January 2007. The process of this order was well under way, and consultation and everything else under the rules that applied then had started. It came into Parliament in December 2006, so that is why it is covered. The costs for licences are high. Night-time licences require site visits and follow-up for safety. At this time there are no plans from Natural England to charge applicants, but I have no better information on that. One thing for sure is that, if and when charges are made for licences, they will be purely for cost recovery. It will not be allowed to be used for an income generator—nor is the Environment Agency supposed to be using it as income generator, although people have different views about that from time to time. In what I thought was an incredibly unfair question, the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, raised the issue of bovine TB. I have not come equipped with the answer but, as everyone knows, Ministers are considering the report on the matter by the Independent Scientific Group on Cattle. In addition, a Question to Defra will be asked in your Lordships’ House next week. The Government’s own scientists—that is, the scientists in Defra and the government chief scientists across Whitehall—are assessing the scientific aspects of the report. It went beyond some of the science, but I am not in a position to say anything about it. Shambo is currently a matter exclusively for the Welsh Assembly. I understand that the Assembly will appeal the decision, but there is no question but that it comes under Welsh jurisdiction. Defra is not involved, but the idea that we are not interested does not stand up. Simply, the case concerns a disease in an animal that in general is used for food production, and this is a matter of controlling disease in food production animals. Whether or not the animal goes into the food chain does not really matter. One might argue about the scientific report that we have just had from Professor Bourne’s group, which was set up 10 years ago, and about what it found out. Ten years ago, Ministers were told, ““Do this trial and you will find out the transmission route of TB, cattle to cattle and badger to badger””, but we do not know what the route is, and the report does not tell us. Frankly, how much the judge in Wales read into that, we do not know. The cow was diagnosed as having TB on the basis of one test. Everyone knows that the test is not perfect, but it does not matter whether it is an isolated case; the fact is that scientists cannot tell Ministers the transmission route of the disease. If you know that the disease is there but you do not know the transmission route, it is fairly obvious that you have to take a certain course of action. However, the matter will go to appeal; therefore, I have probably said more than I should have done. I am not in a position to criticise judges; Ministers should never do that. Public health, public safety, animal health and animal safety are our responsibility. However, I understand that the Welsh Assembly is appealing the issue. With regard to Lyme disease, ticks are thought to be the most significant vectors of human and livestock diseases in the UK. Many reports suggest that ticks have become more abundant recently, coinciding with increased densities of deer. We are not currently funding research specifically into Lyme disease but we are funding one project at Oxford University—reference SE 4105—that is taking a broader look at tick-borne zoonosis in deer. The project will define how the UK tick fauna has changed and how it may change in the future under the influence of changing environmental factors, including climate, land use and the host—that is, the availability of deer—taking the following progressive steps. The first is statistical modelling to create predictive risk maps for resident tick species and potential invaders from Europe; the second is retrospective analysis of the precise factors that are identified as being critically limiting to assess whether they have changed appropriately; and the third is biological modelling to investigate the relative impact of abiotic and biotic factors on tick distribution, abundance and seasonal patterns of activity. I read that out without having read it before. If I have pronounced anything wrong, I apologise. I see from my notes that I have not been briefed about Shambo, so I should not have said anything. Natural England already assesses serious damage to the environment under other legislation. A loss of £100,000 to a large enterprise may not be considered serious but, to a small holding, naturally it would be very large, so one has to look at the present circumstances. Natural England advisers will assist landowners in identifying methods of alleviating the damage. The natural heritage, for the purposes of Section 8, is defined in new subsection (6) of Section 8 as meaning, "““flora and fauna, geological or physiological features or natural beauty and amenity of the countryside””." Some of that is scientific, while some of it sounds a bit subjective to me. See Article 4(6) of the order. The Central Science Laboratory, Defra’s key body, is undertaking research into the role of bovine TB in deer and the transmission to cattle. This is a huge enterprise, which is costing a fortune. That is why we have to deal with it seriously. Stalkers will receive training—10,000 have already done so—including training on disease identification. That is an important aspect—it is not just the mechanics of stalking. If I have missed anything, I will come back with a note, but I hope that what I have said has been helpful. On Question, Motion agreed to.