Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

My Lords, I welcome the concessions which the Minister has already set out. I join others in congratulating her on how that has happened and how those views have been put forward today. I reflect upon what I said to your Lordships’ House when this was debated at length on 5 February, and which I repeat: in any developed country which believes in itself and its tradition, a litmus test of that society is how it treats prisoners held within the official places of incarceration. They are listed, and need no further comment from me; police cells are one and prisons are another, as the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has indicated. It seems that we hold up our hands in horrortime and time again at what we see taking place in banana republics, in central African republics and, on occasions, in Middle Eastern republics. We look at how prisoners are frequently treated in those places and congratulate ourselves on how we do things differently in this country. Of course, by and large, we do, and, by and large, we have something which we can be proud of in this country. If that is the case, why are we pursuing this debate today? What have we got to hide? Why raise questions in the minds of those who seek to criticise about our seeking officially to exclude ourselves from something which seems patently clear. As a civilised country, we should be prepared to offer ourselves up for examination on the way in which we conduct prisons, police cells andso forth. The noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, has already commented upon prisons, and I, declaring an interest, of course wish to comment about those held in police custody. When, in February, I checked the official APCO view, it was that it was rather surprised that there were moves to exclude the police from the Bill. Now, I understand that a letter is in circulation in which the official APCO view is expressed, which is that it is quite happy to be excluded from the Bill and to enjoy the exclusions that apply to prisons and elsewhere. This morning, I checked with the APCO spokesman, and he told me that, in coming to that view, APCO found it a borderline decision, but was still happy to find itself outside the compass of the Bill. I have to tell noble Lords what I told him; that I was extremely disappointed to hear that. I would have thought that a mature service that believed in itself would have nothing to fear and nothing to hide. I do not speak with any remit—nor would I speak with a remit on behalf of APCO—when I say that I believe that the police should be included along with prisons and the other organisations and places that we are aware of. I think that APCO is wrong and that we in this country should be prepared to be transparent and to expose the circumstances of what happens in our prisons, our cells and elsewhere to court examination. For that reason, I support Motion A1.