Docking of Working Dogs’ Tails (England) Regulations 2007

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his work since the regulations were withdrawn and for having been able to meet members of his team twice. I also thank him for his lengthy introduction, which was very helpful. Anybody looking back at this legislation will have a chance to look at Hansard and seek clarification on one or two issues that they might be concerned with. I do not propose to go into the detail as the Minister has done that and I do not intend to repeat it. I should declare that I am an honorary associate member of the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons and the BVA. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, covered the reasons why she is now quite happy since she clarified the issue with the royal college. I am more than happy to accept the regulations and I thank the Minister for his time in going into detail. I would like to support these statutory instruments, but I would also like to record my concerns, which, as the Minister will remember, I expressed in Committee on the Bill. My gripe—and I put down in bold English that it is a gripe—is that the way that we deal with Bills that come to Parliament in a skeleton form and have to be followed up by regulation at some time in future is not a satisfactory way of conducting business. Had we debated the Bill more fully in Committee, some of these issues would have been ironed out and we would not have had to return to them later. That does not affect just this Bill; it also affects many other Bills that the Government bring forward where we have to wait for regulations later on. When we seek clarification, the Minister has to try to clarify the Government’s position, but, as he knows very well, we cannot change orders, unless they are defective, and so we have to accept orders that we might have tried to change while the Bill had its passage. We support the proposals in the Docking of Working Dogs’ Tails (England) Regulations. As the Minister indicated, we expect them to reduce the number of dogs who have their tails docked for cosmetic reasons by 90 per cent. I do not agree with docking, and I am delighted to see that it will be going. We are also pleased that veterinarians will have discretion about whether to dock dogs’ tails. That is something that the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior, was particularly keen to raise tonight. The switch of this business from last night, when he could not have been with us, to tonight, when he could be with us, was a bonus because it is good to have somebody who dealt with these matters on a daily basis giving his expertise. I would like to ask two further questions. First, I return to a subject I raised before—the desirability, where possible, of microchipping puppies at the time of docking. If possible, it is much wiser to microchip then rather than having puppies brought back at a later stage to be microchipped. Secondly, will the Minister put on the record and clarify the position of, say, an English-based family with a working dog or working puppies, which were perfectly legitimately docked in this country, who move to Scotland and find themselves in an obviously different environment. I think that the Minister indicated that they will have to keep some sort of proof to be able to say that the dog was docked in England and had a certificate. Presumably that certificate will have to remain with them until they die. I should check whether, under the regulations in Scotland, it will be an offence to bring a dog over the Border from Scotland into England to have it deliberately docked. The one issue the Minister did not touch on tonight was what happens on those farms which border both regions. How does one decide whether that holding is in England and therefore English rules apply, or whether it is in Scotland? At the moment, that is not clear to me. What about somebody who, for example, lives at weekends in Scotland but works in England and brings their dogs with them? I did not manage to find the answer to that issue on reading of the provision. The Minister earlier said, quite rightly, that shows will in time reflect whether dogs have been docked in the permitted way. I suspect that it will take a few years before that works through. Even at Crufts some of the dogs are older rather than necessarily being young ones. The Minister will have received representations, particularly from the RSPCA, suggesting that Section 23 of the Act, to which other noble Lords have referred, does not, in its view, solve the problem that has been raised already. The society does not believe that the provision has enough strength. A magistrate must be persuaded that there are reasonable grounds for granting a warrant. How can he be persuaded of that if there is no way of knowing whether evidence of an offence will be present on the premises, or may not even exist? Again, I would be grateful for more clarification on that angle from the Minister when he responds. I make no comment on the whole question of fines and imprisonment. But I pick up from my colleagues who have asked that this legislation should be reviewed. The noble Countess, Lady Mar, asked for two years. I think that she may be too early. I would be quite happy with a three to five-year period, but no longer than five. We really must revisit that. I turn to the mutilations order. I raised issues which I thought were important about the desirability to use anaesthetics more often than is laid down in these regulations. For cattle and goats anaesthetics have to be given for castration after two months have expired, whereas for sheep the time lapse is three months. My noble friend the Duke of Montrose has spoken about his interest and work with sheep. Why is there that time lapse? Is it because the sheep are up in the hills and therefore it is more difficult to get them down? Looking at the discussions on this in another place, I understand that the Farm Animal Welfare Council is examining the whole question of sheep castration. It is due to report shortly. When is that likely to be? I raise one further issue, which has been raised with me again today. As the Minister knows, it is a difficult operation to make sure that ear tags stay on sheep’s ears. It is a welfare problem. I believe that we have a derogation that allows only one ear tag in a sheep’s ear, but that we may well have to go back to having two. Again, as we are treating this as a mutilation, I wonder whether the Minister might comment on that aspect, as it is a continuing problem to try to ensure that two ear tags remain firmly on the ears of sheep. As the Minister will know, they tend to go rubbing in hedges and the ear tags become loose. In principle, we support the regulations. I will, if I may, go back to where I started and thank the Minister and his team for going through them so clearly with us to enable us to reach this stage in the House tonight.