Fraud (Trials without a Jury) Bill

My Lords, I bow to the noble Lord’s experience but I do not agree with him. I do not see why that should be so. If a judge is trying the case alone and believes that he can manage with more defendants than might have been before a jury, so long as he is satisfied that there is not some prejudice that is taking place that is inappropriate, I do not see why he should not make that decision. But it will be for the judge to decide; that is, fundamentally, the point. I need to say just a word about the Jubilee Line case, which I have not put forward as a reason for this Bill. Mr Stephen Wooler, who wrote the report, made it clear that he did not think one could draw conclusions either way from that case, because it was so special. What I have said, from which I am afraid I do not resile, is that the facts of that case, how long it went on and the extent to which juries were expected to sit for days without evidence being given—sometimes because of problems that the jurors had, as well as others—demonstrate what the burden of those cases can be on jurors. I shall conclude by what the Opposition have put forward. However, I shall make one point before I do. I am sorry to have to do this, but I take exception to the habit to which the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, seems to be getting into of making personal attacks on people, particularly on people who are not here—and on Mr Robert Wardle in particular. Never mind the Solicitor-General—politicians should be prepared to put up with that sort of thing—but I am sorry to have to say that I thought that that was uncalled for. I would not have taken the exceptional step of telling your Lordships of the intention to bring this back under the Parliament Act if this were voted down today but for the extraordinary step that is proposed—to vote this down on Second Reading. I did this so that it is absolutely clear that the opportunity to amend or improve this Bill, which I had thought the parties opposite had been asking for each time that they stopped us proceeding—saying, ““Let’s go through this on a Bill””—will be denied to the whole House. I can tell the noble Lord behind me that I am not opposed to assessors as a matter of principle; if that is what the House wants, we can look at it. The problem is that if the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, is passed then we will not even be able to consider it, but if the Bill comes back then it will come back as it stands.