Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken and for the general welcome that has been given to these amendments. I pay tribute to the officials at the Department for Culture, Media and Sport who have been nothing short of magnificent in helping me to sort out the amendments; noble Lords will know that I am not an expert on art or on the workings of that department, so I am grateful to my honourable friend David Lammy who has been extremely supportive and who has met a number of organisations. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Maclennan, that we should be keen to talk to our international partners and colleagues about what we have done in this legislation and I agree with what he said about clout being important in this context. Overall, I agree with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, on the powerful moral point that lay behind many of the discussions that we had at Second Reading and in Grand Committee and I hope—in fact, I know—that noble Lords will feel that what we have brought forward attempts to deal with that, while recognising that, sadly, there are issues that we cannot deal with in the way that we would like to. I am grateful for the comments of the noble Lord, Lord Janner. I confirm that the standards will be met in the way that my noble friend asked, and I will look at the whole question of legal proceedings. We will give serious consideration to the point that was made about helping claimants to pursue claims in other jurisdictions. We appreciate how difficult that can be and we will certainly explore whether it would be possible to make other information available for that purpose. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, asked about the protection that should not be afforded to works of art that we have reasonable grounds to believe are looted. All major museums in this country accept that works of art that have been looted should not be exhibited and it is not the intention of these provisions to enable them to do so. Approval of museums will be dependent on their demonstrating that they have due diligence procedures that will ensure that, when objects are borrowed, there is an appropriate way to take this forward. Publication of information about objects will, we hope, provide a further safeguard, enabling concerns about particular objects to be raised and ensuring that objects identified as looted are not exhibited. My noble friend Lord Howarth raised a series of issues. I met my noble friend in the hope that I might have been able to tackle some of these issues. I apologise that, inevitably, I do not have the detail at my fingertips. I will try to deal with as many of the issues as I can, with the promise of writing to my noble friend and placing a copy in the Library. We have considered the different forms of community legislation adopted in other countries. In particular, we considered whether a discretionary system such as that in Switzerland, which requires museums to submit an application for each exhibition, would provide sufficient benefits to outweigh the costs and concluded that it would not. The major benefits can be achieved by requiring museums to publish information about each object, as we propose. We think that that would be a better way forward. We intend to publish regulations and will be discussing what the appropriate timescale for publication should be both with interest groups and with museums and galleries. We are currently considering requiring publication of information two months before the start of an exhibition. We will refine that in consultation, if it is required. We appreciate that undertaking due diligence investigations into the provenance and ownership of cultural objects that the museum wishes to borrow will require museums to devote resources to this. As my noble friend says, our museums have already committed themselves to this by accepting the guidance on due diligence issued by the department and endorsed by the Museums Association and other professional bodies. It may be the case that some museums feel that they do not have the resources to meet the standards. No museum is obliged to apply for approval for the purpose of the amenity; it is up to the museum to decide how to spend its resources. My noble friend asked whether the museums and galleries would be consulted on the content of regulations and whether draft regulations would be published. We will be consulting museums, galleries and interest groups on the detailed content of our regulations and they will be shown drafts of the regulations. No final decision has been taken over a formal publication of the draft. As for objects appropriated without compensation in, for example, the Russian Revolution—my noble friend gave other examples—these are quite difficult questions. I know that he intends for me to write to him or for my colleagues to do so. I will ensure that that happens and that, as I indicated, copies are placed in the Library of the House. My noble friend also asked how compliance with due diligence guidance will be monitored. Museums will be required to submit detailed information on their procedures, including how they will investigate provenance and ownership of the objects that they propose to borrow and how these procedures are operated in practice. They will be expected to apply the DCMS guidance and they will be subject to a programme of spot checks to make sure that that is actually happening. Finally, Amendment No. 90 would change ““may”” to ““must”” to oblige the authority to withdraw approval. We do not think that that is appropriate, because the approving authority would have to consider all the circumstances. It may be the case that official failure has been immediately rectified by the museum concerned and we think that it would be unjust to have mandatory withdrawal. But I say that within the context that, if museums do not do this, approval would be withdrawn without question. On Question, amendment agreed to.