Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]

My Lords, as I indicated to the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont, the only way in which we can deal with this on Report is to deal with the groupings in order, which I intend to do. He has raised individual cases, but he will know very well that I cannot respond in these circumstances. Reverend Nicolson was good enough to raise some of these issues with me. I am always mindful when looking at how this law will be enacted that we consider individual circumstances put before us. I take heart from the fact that the noble Lord is willing to do that. Better for us to discuss that beyond your Lordships’ Chamber than my clear inability to respond, for I know not the facts and am unable to deal with the information now. Perhaps I may turn to these amendments so that we have clarity about where we sit. I will commit, as ever, to continuing discussions beyond your Lordships’ House—I think that many of the noble Lord’s concerns are about what we do. I reiterate one thing, which I hoped that I had covered in my opening remarks on the previous group and is pertinent to much of what he said on this group. The purpose behind this legislation is to bring together, to simplify and to clarify the law covering the work of bailiffs and other enforcement agencies, specifically in order to make it better for them, but also better for the debtors. Much of the provision in Part 5 is designed to support vulnerable people with debts in the circumstances in which they find themselves, but also to recognise that creditors have rights too. The Bill is very balanced, so the noble Lord will understand my personal anguish when it is suggested that it is other than that, because that is exactly what I seek to do. In enacting this legislation, we will be very careful to ensure we take on board the points that have been raised, but deal with them in an appropriate manner. As I have said, we have to find that right balance between creditors and the rights of those to whom they owe money. The current system, which is based on common law conceived hundreds of years ago, needs to be brought up to date. It is complex, confusing and difficult to understand, which the noble Lord indicates with many of his examples. That has to change. There is an overwhelming case for simplification and clarification. One of the long-standing objectives of the civil enforcement review is to make enforcement law understandable and more straightforward. This Bill will achieve that. It will introduce in one piece of legislation a single piece of enforcement agent law that will contain in one place the legal structure for virtually all enforcement of civil debts, judgments and criminal fines, written in terms that identify and outline the rights and responsibilities of creditors, debtors and enforcement agents alike. That needs to be achieved in one place. The retention of certain common-law rights and responsibilities standing totally separately from the Bill would in many ways run contrary to the main objective, which I think the noble Lord supports. This includes the current powers of entry, based on common law conceived hundreds of years ago. It is not right that debtors can simply evade payment by refusing to open the door. With appropriate safeguards, the Bill allows a power of entry using reasonable force—a power which, other than for the existing powers of forced entry for enforcing unpaid criminal fines, will be exercised only with prior judicial authority. The court plays a critical role and will need to be satisfied that it is reasonable to grant a warrant to use reasonable force, and will balance the rights of the debtor and creditor when making such a decision. Being appraised of the facts, the court is best placed to make this decision impartially. Paragraphs 149 and 150 of our detailed policy statement set out the conditions that will have to be met for such a warrant to be granted. I hope that the noble Lord will take the spirit of what I have said about this bringing things together to achieve some of his objectives, and that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment.