UK Parliament / Open data

Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lucas. I shall deal first with Amendment No. 61 and then with the other three. Many of the provisions in the amendment are already contained in the Bill. I will not comment on those, but I will comment on the provisions where they deviate from the proposals in the Bill. Paragraph 14(7)(c) would introduce a new power to force entry without prior judicial authority on to commercial premises. We do not think that that power is justifiable. Forced entry should be allowed only without prior judicial authority for the enforcement of unpaid fines in line with current law. To be allowed forced entry the creditor or enforcement agent would need to prove that such force is necessary and justifiable. Paragraph 15(1) would introduce a power to force entry on to mixed-use premises when pursuing debts under the commercial rent arrears recovery system—CRAR. We think that that is unnecessary. The whole nature of the CRAR system is that it is only applicable for commercial tenancies in wholly commercial premises. As an out-of-court remedy, which this is, there is a real risk that it would not be compliant with the European Convention on Human Rights if we did not restrict it to commercial tenancies and premises and allowed it for mixed use. Paragraph 15(2)(b) refers to entry being carried out by ““normal methods””. I am not sure I understand what that means; we need to define ““normal means””. I am a little worried that ““normal means”” could be interpreted as meaning that other methods will be considered acceptable in other circumstances. The Bill and its underpinning regulations intend to do away with many of the other methods of entry currently considered legal, such as climbing through broken windows and skylights and landlords lifting up floorboards to get into premises below. I do not want to see any of those methods returning by the back door, if I can use that analogy. Paragraph 17 contains new powers regarding re-entry. That matter is touched on in Amendments Nos. 64 and 66, which I will come on to in a moment. Likewise, a new power in paragraph 19 covers some ground that we will shortly be debating in more detail in Amendments Nos. 69, 70 and 71. I hope that the noble Lord will understand why I would like to leave that matter for now. I also do not want to get into restraint issues because I want to talk about them in greater detail. I hope that, on the basis of what I said the effects of that would be, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw Amendment No. 61. I turn to Amendments Nos. 64 and 66 and government Amendment No. 65, which I propose not to move this evening. When the noble Lord, Lord Lucas, spoke eloquently in Grand Committee and on Second Reading, he was concerned that a debtor who worked from a room in his house might be subject to the powers of forced entry to commercial premises. He contrasted that with the commercial rent arrears recovery proposals, where entry to mixed-use premises is prohibited. Having been taken by the noble Lord’s argument, I went away with the promise to consider it and came back with an amendment that did what I thought that he wanted. He now wants to do something quite different. I understand that, because since I drafted and laid that amendment, both the noble Lord and I have had representations from both sides of the debate—the enforcement industry and the debt advice sector—concerned that such a tightening of powers of re-entry may have unforeseen consequences of more enforcement agents being encouraged to remove goods on the first visit, rather than entering into a controlled goods agreement or securing goods on the premises. Naturally, that is something that we—and, more especially, the debt advice sector—are particularly keen to avoid. The noble Lord subsequently tabled further amendments, Amendments Nos. 64 and 66, which would give the power of forced re-entry without prior judicial authority to all enforcement agents and all types of premises for all types of debt. I hesitate to give that proposal unqualified approval, as it may be going too far in the other direction. I am also taken with what the advice agencies have said. We need to look at the matter in greater detail. There needs to be some provision to give the power of re-entry without prior judicial authority to avoid scenarios where enforcement agents feel compelled to remove goods on the first visit. I am, however, unsure that that would give sufficient protection to vulnerable debtors in domestic premises. Scope exists to provide for such limitations to be imposed by way of regulations under Paragraph 24(1) of Schedule 12, so there could be some protection for people in those circumstances. I would like to consider the matter further. If noble Lords will permit me, I would like not to move government Amendment No. 65, to take away what lies behind Amendment Nos. 64 and 66 and have further discussions not only with the noble Lord but with different sides on this debate, in order to return to the matter at Third Reading, if that seems appropriate. On that basis, I hope that the noble Lord can withdraw Amendment No. 61 and allow me to take the other issues away and come back.

About this proceeding contribution

Reference

689 c277-8 

Session

2006-07

Chamber / Committee

House of Lords chamber
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