Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]

moved Amendment No. 61: 61: Schedule 12, page 203, line 19, leave out paragraphs 14 to 30 and insert— ““Entry to take control of goods 14 (1) An enforcement agent may enter relevant premises to search for and take control of goods. (2) Where there are different relevant premises this paragraph authorises entry to each of them. (3) This paragraph authorises repeated entry to the same premises, subject to any restriction in regulations. (4) If the enforcement agent is acting under section 64(1) (CRAR), the only relevant premises are the demised premises. (5) If the enforcement agent is acting under section 121A of the Social Security Administration Act 1992, premises are relevant if they are the place, or one of the places, where the debtor carries on a trade or business. (6) Otherwise premises are relevant if the enforcement agent reasonably believes that they are the place, or one of the places, where the debtor— (a) usually lives, or (b) carries on a trade or business. (7) An enforcement agent may if necessary use reasonable force to enter relevant premises or to do anything for which the entry is authorised if any of these conditions are met— (a) the enforcement agent is acting under section 64(1) (CRAR) and the provisions of paragraph 15 are met, (b) the conditions of paragraph 17 (re-entry to inspect or remove controlled goods) are met, or (c) in all other cases, if the premises contain no living or domestic accommodation. (8) Where an enforcement agent is not authorised to use reasonable force by virtue of paragraph 14(7) he may apply to the court for an order under paragraph 16 authorising him to use reasonable force if necessary to enter the premises or to do anything for which entry is authorised. Special entry provisions for Commercial Rent Arrears Recovery 15 (1) When an enforcement agent is acting under section 64(1) (CRAR), the enforcement agent may, if he considers it necessary, use reasonable force to enter or to do anything for which the entry is authorised at the premises if they include domestic or living accommodation in actual use. (2) This power may be used only if these conditions are met— (a) it is necessary to traverse a part of the premises used for domestic or living accommodation (other than the common parts) in order to reach the part of the premises where the debtor carries on a trade or business, (b) the enforcement agent uses only the normal methods of entry used by visitors to the premises, and (c) an oral request to allow entry has not been granted. Application for authority to force entry 16 (1) If the enforcement agent applies to the court it may issue a warrant authorising him to use, if necessary, reasonable force to enter the premises or to do anything for which entry is authorised. (2) Before issuing a warrant the court must be satisfied that all these conditions are met— (a) an enforcement power has become exercisable; (b) there is reason to believe that there are goods on the premises that the enforcement power will be exercisable to take control of if the warrant is issued; (c) provisions prescribed in regulations are met; and (d) it is reasonable in all the circumstances to issue the warrant. (3) The authorisation may be subject to conditions. (4) The warrant may require a constable to assist the enforcement agent. Re-entry to inspect or remove controlled goods 17 (1) An enforcement agent may re-enter any premises where there are controlled goods which have not been removed by the enforcement agent. (2) The enforcement agent may if necessary use reasonable force to enter the premises to inspect the goods or to remove them for storage or sale. (3) This paragraph authorises repeated re-entry to the same premises, subject to any restrictions in regulations. General provisions about entry and re-entry 18 (1) The enforcement agent must on request show the debtor and any person who appears to him to be in charge of the premises evidence of— (a) his identity, and (b) his authority to enter the premises. (2) The request may be made before the enforcement agent enters the premises or while he is there. (3) The enforcement agent may take other people onto the premises who may assist the enforcement agent in exercising any power, including a power to use force, but who may not remain on the premises without the enforcement agent. (4) The enforcement agent may take any equipment onto the premises and may leave equipment on the premises if he leaves controlled goods there. (5) The enforcement agent may enter and remain on the premises only within prescribed times of day. (6) Regulations may give the court power in prescribed circumstances to authorise him to enter or remain on the premises at other times. (7) The enforcement agent must leave the premises as effectively secured as he finds them. General provisions about the use of force to enter and to re-enter 19 (1) This paragraph applies where an enforcement agent has power to use reasonable force if necessary to enter premises (2) The power to enter and any power to use force are subject to any restriction imposed by or under regulations. (3) A power to use force does not include power to use force against persons Notices and lists of goods 20 (1) After entering or re-entering premises the enforcement agent must provide a notice for the debtor giving information about what the enforcement agent is doing. Regulations must state— (a) the form of the notice; and (b) what information it must give. (2) Regulations may prescribe circumstances in which a notice need not be provided after re-entry to premises. (3) If the debtor is on the premises when the enforcement agent is there, the enforcement agent must give him the notice then. (4) If the debtor is not there, the enforcement agent must leave the notice in a conspicuous place on the premises. (5) If the enforcement agent knows that there is someone else there or that there are other occupiers, a notice he leaves under sub-paragraph (1) must be in a sealed envelope addressed to the debtor. (6) If the debtor is absent from the premises, the enforcement agent must leave at the premises a list of any goods he takes away. (7) If the enforcement agent knows that there is someone else there or that there are other occupiers, a list he leaves under sub-paragraph (6) must be in a sealed envelope addressed to the debtor.”” The noble Lord said: My Lords, in speaking to Amendment No. 61, I shall speak also to Amendments Nos. 64 and 66. These amendments are designed to be helpful. My experience of the Bill has been marked from the very beginning by total confusion about the meaning of the powers it contains for taking control of goods. I am sad to say that that confusion is shared by almost everybody I have talked to. I have been in long and extensive discussions with people involved in or looking at the industry, and I have listened to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, on other occasions, and the way things are set out in the Bill is unclear. If that remains the case, it will be extremely difficult for whoever regulates the industry to make sure that those who are subject to the Bill because money is being recovered from them by a bailiff understand what their situation is and what the powers of the bailiff are. This weighty amendment is an attempt to redraft things in a way and in an order that make the Bill, as we understand it, clear—it is quite possible that because of continued confusion we have misunderstood it. It is a plea to the Government to have this important part of the Bill set out with clarity, in clear English, in a logical order and all together, so that somebody looking at the legislation—for example, an advisor at the citizens advice bureau—can have a clear idea at first reading of whether, in particular circumstances, a bailiff is likely to be acting within the law. I have found that—and I am no lawyer, but I have been reading law, as it were, for the past 15 years in this place—extremely difficult to do with the Bill. Doubtless the noble Baroness will pick me up on some points where I have continued to misunderstand the provisions. I would like the noble Baroness’s views on one important point of difference. At a meeting of the Enforcement Law Reform Group an issue attracted support from around the house, as it were—both from bailiffs and from the likes of the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust; t hat is, after the bailiffs have entered a house, probably peaceably, and taken control of goods, when they turn up again to deal with the matter and are refused entry they should have the power that they have currently to make a forcible entry without having to go to a court. Otherwise, their feeling was that the debtor, who at that point has refused to produce money and may well have an excess of courage and defiance to refuse them entry, would make them go through the whole business of applying to a court to get in again. Rather than that, whenever there is any doubt, they would be inclined to take the goods at first instance. As I said on the previous amendment, bailiffs do not wish to do that. It is good neither for them nor for the debtor that they should. So, I very much hope that the noble Baroness will confirm that the existing practice will be allowed to continue. Furthermore, I understand that that has the support not only of the bailiffs but also of those whose primary care is the debtor. I beg to move.