Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for, first, identifying that he wanted to cover a range of issues. I shall deal with some of his general points, but he will forgive me if I can better deal with some of the issues—on certification and bailiffs, for example—when addressing them in the round. It is no disrespect to the noble Lord that I do not deal with them effectively. I also pay tribute to the Reverend Nicolson, from the Zacchaeus 2000 Trust, who did me the courtesy of seeing me on 18 January. We had a good and, at times, robust discussion which I found extremely useful. He gave me a lot of food for thought. Although we come at this from slightly different perspectives, I thank him very much. Many of the things he has written to the department about, and will continue to raise with us, are important as we put this legislation into practice. I completely understand the desire to recognise vulnerability in everything that we do. We are dealing with circumstances with creditors and debtors, and where the courts have made decisions. We must therefore be mindful of upholding the law. In so doing, however, we must be clear that there are extremely vulnerable people. One reason for bringing the legislation together into one piece of law—from common law, statute, regulations and so on—is to enable greater clarity both for those who enforce the law and those at the receiving end, as I said on the previous amendment. That is an important part of what we have done. We have done quite a lot in improving the opportunities to deal with debts in different ways. I know that we have not spent a huge amount of time on that in either Committee or your Lordships’ House today. That is not through lack of interest, but because there is a general view among noble Lords that these are good things to do. There is a general recognition in all that we are doing that we must provide a range of opportunities to help and support people who get into debt, while recognising that creditors have a right to get their goods back or have their debts resolved. That is the premise on which I speak to the next groups of amendments. There are no secret instructions. I would be more than happy to talk about how we intend to talk to the industry and share what we will be doing next with noble Lords as far as I can. There is no secrecy on my part; I find that practically impossible. We want to be as clear as we can. The greater clarity comes because we will be as open as possible. I reassure the noble Lord, and trust that he will hold me to that as we progress from legislation to action. To answer the noble Lord’s amendments, I think I also read out the list in paragraphs 130 to 133 of our policy statement, a copy of which has been placed in the Library, in Grand Committee. It is a list of exempt items which we intend to contain in regulations so that we can amend them in response to changes; mobile phones might be in or out, but we certainly would not have put them in 20 years ago. It includes fixtures and fittings, including those connected to water, fuel and power supplies. It also includes domestic pets and dogs that aid the blind or hard of hearing, and a minimum amount of cash that must be left on premises for the purpose of sustaining normal everyday living for the debtor and his family. As I have indicated, it is better to keep this in regulations to give flexibility and ensure that changes can be made easily and quickly in response to experience. For example, the amount of cash that must be left on the premises will vary from household to household, for reasons the noble Lord will know well. We do not want a fixed sum in the Bill, as amending it in future legislation would be difficult and time consuming. That is the basis on which we will be open. I hope that our lists will offer the noble Lord comfort, and that he will feel able to withdraw his amendment. On Amendments Nos. 59 and 60, we do not want a code of practice to deal with vulnerable debtors; it is not necessary. We want to ensure that everything we do clarifies what enforcement agents are and are not legally entitled to do. Schedule 12 and its underpinning regulations will do that. Paragraph 12 of Schedule 12 in general restricts what may be taken to the value of the outstanding debt plus future costs. Regulations under paragraph 3(1) of Schedule 12 will stipulate a list of exempt goods. Regulations will also reflect the provisions from the National Standards for Enforcement Agents, which state that on discovering that the only person on the premises is a child aged 12 years or under, the enforcement agent must withdraw immediately without making further enquiries. If the enforcement agent were to ignore those regulations, remedies would be available to the debtor under paragraph 66 of Schedule 12. The training requirements for enforcement agents in Clause 56 and the training for agents who are Crown employees will also cover how enforcement agents should identify and deal with vulnerable and potentially vulnerable debtor groups. Enforcement agents, suitably trained and in full possession of the facts of the case, will then be in the best position to judge and to know what they should do. The concept of vulnerability is difficult to define. The noble Lord would probably say that it is not possible to be sure that he has covered everyone he would want to, but it is difficult to argue that someone who does not speak English as a first language is necessarily always vulnerable. Finally, I should add that, in many circumstances, debtors already have the right to apply to the court to stay enforcement action, and Part 5 of the Bill introduces a new set of targeted measures to help vulnerable debtors. In particular, they will, where appropriate, allow reduction and remission of debts. I hope those reassurances will enable the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment, and I assure him that I will attempt to make sure that we keep him in touch with what we are doing.