Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]

My Lords, Amendment No. 22A can be described as ““win, win, win””. I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kingsland, for responding so quickly to enable us to accept the amendment he tabled. It was the noble Lord, Lord Newton of Braintree—and who am I to do anything other than what he tells me to?—who put this forward, and I agree with it completely. Rather than having to take the amendment away, I am delighted that we can simply accept it with grateful thanks. It does everything that noble Lords have said. The noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, raised an important point about legal aid. I know he feels strongly about it. At Second Reading, my noble and learned friend the Lord Chancellor said: "““I am supportive of the proposition that, for issues such as welfare benefit, legal aid should be more widely available than it is at the moment. However, that requires first of all getting a grip on criminal legal aid to ensure that some money is available””.—[Official Report, 26/11/06; col. 762.]" My noble and learned friend made clear the importance that we attach to legal aid. I know that the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, does not dispute that one of the great joys of tribunals is that they operate differently from the traditional court system. We hope that the more informal and, perhaps, more inquisitorial system will enable people to represent themselves when that is appropriate. However, it is important that they are able to get high-quality advice and support and, in bringing together tribunal services, I am looking at how we provide that advice to those who come to tribunals; it is an important issue. I also accept that there will be circumstances where we would want to do more than that and where legal aid might be appropriate. I am, therefore, resisting Amendment No. 23, but a huge review of legal aid is going on—there have been 2,372 replies to the consultation paper. Noble Lords know that the amount of money spent has risen from £1.5 billion in 1997 to more than £2 billion now and that Lord Carter examined the position in depth. However, I am resisting the amendment in the light of the commitment given by my noble and learned friend at Second Reading. In civil justice and in the Tribunals Service he wishes to make sure that where legal aid is needed, we will consider it, for precisely the reason indicated by the noble Lord—to make sure that people get access to justice. I cannot simply insert it in the Bill without putting it in the broader context of the legal aid reforms; however, I shall take the proposition forward. My noble and learned friend said clearly what his view is, and I hope that noble Lords will recognise that that commitment is there and will hold the Government to account in future to make sure that we fulfil it.