Tribunals, Courts and Enforcement Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am very grateful, not only for all the contributions but for the spirit of the contributions. In particular, I thank the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, for his introduction of this issue. I completely understand that these issues are of great import to Members of your Lordships’ House. Let me begin by explaining again, particularly for the benefit of noble Lords who were not with us in Committee, precisely what we are seeking to achieve and why. We are trying to make sure that we get the best possible service that the justice system can provide to users by making it possible that cases can benefit from the specialist skills and the knowledge of a senior judge in a tribunal, rather than—and I mean this in the best sense of the word—the generalist skill and knowledge of a judge in the administrative court. We think that the provision would mean more appropriate access to justice, but we have hedged this power with safeguards. There is no reduction in the right to apply for judicial review. It is not the Government but the senior judiciary who decide which cases are suitable for transfer. Under the Bill, a senior president, a Lord Justice of Appeal or his delegate would decide which judge heard which case. The amendments would remove the advantages conferred by the transfer, so noble Lords will understand why I am extremely hesitant about them. I know from a discussion that I had earlier with the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, that he, along with other noble Lords, is very keen to see whether there is a way through this issue. I, too, have spoken to the Lord Chief Justice. I do not have his permission to quote him but I think that his position in this set of circumstances may not be quite as noble Lords have indicated. He is very keen to ensure that I, together with the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Justice Carnwath as president of the Tribunals Service, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, the noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Thomas of Gresford, and anyone else who wishes to join in have a conversation to see whether we can find a way through this. It is not simply a question of resources; there is a point of principle behind it as well. We would all benefit from hearing the Lord Chief Justice speak for himself. That would be better than my attempting to interpret what he said, which, as I said, I would not do without his permission. I hope that noble Lords accept that I agree to do exactly as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Lloyd of Berwick, wishes—that is, I shall take this matter away with the understanding that, if I am unable to convince him, the amendment will reappear and your Lordships will be able to exercise their right to, as it were, decide for me on this issue. However, I believe that our conversations will find a way to tackle the underlying concerns without removing the principle, on which I think we agree.