Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

My Lords, regarding the position of the Crown, the difference is that one is dealing with decisions that go far wider than those of local authorities. It will inevitably have to deal with the overall national Budget, national funding issues and the question of priorities that fall to be considered. With respect, I contend that that is not a proper matter for the courts to become deeply involved in. The noble Lords, Lord Henley and Lord Lee, raised the question of the police. The offence has been extended to police forces, which are covered as employers and occupiers, except where they are dealing with very serious threats, such as terrorism and civil unrest. How the offence should apply to operational activities more broadly was discussed for some time in another place, with some recognition that the matter was not straightforward. The police do not owe a duty of care for many of their operational activities and, therefore, it is important that this area is treated with considerable sensitivity. A number of noble Lords, including the noble Lords, Lord Cotter and Lord Henley, the noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, and the noble Lord, Lord Hunt, referred to unincorporated bodies. The current law does not extend to unincorporated bodies. Evidence from the Health and Safety Executive indicates that only 2 per cent of HSE prosecutions are against unincorporated bodies. It is true that these typically involve smaller businesses such as building firms and sole traders, where individual prosecutions are likely to be possible. Very few prosecutions or other enforcement actions are brought against the office-based industries, such as estate agents, law firms or accountancy partnerships, to which reference was made. However, this area has been debated extensively and we are looking at whether there is a sensible way to extend the offence in some way. The noble Lord, Lord Henley, asked to see amendments immediately in relation to unincorporated bodies and sanctions. We are continuing to consider whether it would be sensible to extend the Bill to cover unincorporated bodies and alternative sanctions, and we will continue to do so. If we consider that amendments would be sensible, we will bring them forward, of course. Provisions relating to incorporated bodies mentioned in the schedule cover a number of government departments. Incorporated public bodies that are not listed are covered by the offence automatically, including local authorities, National Health Service bodies and other public bodies, such as English Heritage and so on. The noble Earl, Lord Mar and Kellie, raised the question of Scottish partnerships. They will be considered in due course when we look at what may be dealt with in this area. Turning to the question of jurisdiction, raised by the noble Lord, Lord James, the Bill already extends beyond the land of the UK in a number of important respects. It applies to deaths within territorial sea limits and would therefore apply to the circumstances of the Lyme Bay tragedy, when a number of canoeists were killed, which led to the first ever successful corporate manslaughter prosecution. It will apply also to deaths resulting from tragic accidents involving British ships, such as the Zeebrugge tragedy, and will apply to deaths on oil rigs, bearing in mind the Piper Alpha disaster. The noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, asked about foreign-flagged vessels. Scottish and English law does not apply to vessels outside British waters, and the new offence follows the approach that the law has adopted thus far. These are all circumstances in which British law already applies. Perhaps the point to bear in mind is that once one goes beyond British jurisdiction, difficulties will inevitably arise. The police are not in control of the investigation and have no formal powers to gather evidence, which will be collected by other countries’ police forces and possibly subject to other rules of evidence. The question of director disqualification was raised by the noble Lords, Lord Cotter, Lord Hoyle and Lord Hunt. Directors can currently be disqualified if they are convicted of an offence. Perhaps I should say nothing further about that at this point. The area is already substantially covered. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Boyd, asked whether the Bill might lead to delegation of health and safety responsibility below senior level. It is clear that only organisations in which health and safety is managed properly at the senior level can be sure of avoiding liability for the offence. We do not thinkthat the offence acts as an incentive to delegate responsibilities inappropriately. A new offence of corporate manslaughter has been in the offing for many years. A number of high-profile cases have illustrated demonstrable flaws in current law. I am very pleased that we have at last brought this Bill before your Lordships’ House. It is a complicated area and has been difficult to get right. I look forward to having the expertise of noble Lords in ensuring that it receives proper scrutiny. I believe, having listened to this debate, that most noble Lords broadly support the Bill, for which I am grateful. We will have every opportunity to discuss the full details in Committee in the new year. It is no doubt a task for the Committee to consider the improvements to which the noble Lords, Lord Clinton-Davis, Lord Hoyle, Lord Rosser and Lord Wedderburn, referred. I have been asked by my noble friend Lady Scotland to thank the noble Lord, Lord Ramsbotham, for his kind words about her. They are, if I may respectfully say so, highly accurate. On Question, Bill read a second time, and committed to a Grand Committee.