Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Bill

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this Bill with her usual elegance and lucidity and for explaining why, although small, it is of great significance—that is underlined, she would agree, by the fact that on the day that we rise for Christmas some 24 noble Lords have put their name down to speak. She will be aware that that indicates that we are likely to have a fairly busy and active Committee stage, which, dare I say, the usual channels have agreed will start soon after Christmas. Perhaps I may say a word about that in due course. The noble Baroness described the Bill as small but significant. We could agree with that, but it is still not perfectly formed. For that reason again, we would like to have busy Committee and Report stages. The Bill has come to us through carryover procedures; in other words, its Second Reading and Committee stages in another place were held in the previous Session, its Report stage was held just after the State Opening, and we will now continue with it. Again, I shall say a bit more about that in due course, because that has significance for Committee. At Third Reading in another place, my honourable friend Dominic Grieve, in giving his views on the Bill, wished it ““a good passage””, having at Second Reading made it clear—and the noble Baroness referred to this—that he felt that there might be a more effective way of dealing with the problem by relying more on the Health and Safety at Work etc. Act 1974. He made clear at Third Reading that he had failed to convince the Government in Committee of the virtues of that approach and that he was therefore, as we are, content to try to help the Government improve a Bill that, as I described, is not perfectly formed. He said that he wanted to help to ensure that, when finally enacted, the legislation was not seen as representing gesture politics, as designed merely to keep the Government’s friends in the trade unions and others happy, or as setting up a legislative sledgehammer to crack a nut that, as my honourable friend said, could more effectively have been cracked by simpler amendments introducing an aggravated offence into the 1974 Act. As I mentioned, the Bill was carried over, having gone through Second Reading and Committee in another place in the previous Session, and it had its Third Reading this Session. That indicates, certainly to me, that time is not of the essence. As the noble Baroness made clear, it was first introduced as a draft Bill and has been subject to very extensive scrutiny and consultation with all and sundry—every possible stakeholder, as the Government like to say. Therefore, it is unfortunate that the Government conducteda truncated Report stage in another place and introduced many amendments without any discussion whatever. In the Commons on 4 December, as reported in Hansard at cols. 113-4, some 21 government amendments were introduced and agreed to without any debate or explanation. I should warn the noble Baroness that we will be minded to table an extensive number of ““leave out”” amendments in relation to those government changes, purely to give the noble Baroness an opportunity to explain in greater detail the intentions behind their introduction. They might easily have been explained if there had been a second day of Report. I make that point purely so that the noble Baroness knows that those amendments that seek to delete the Government’s amendments will of necessity be what might be referred to as probing amendments. We want to know exactly what the Government intended by their amendments. I understand from the usual channels that an agreement has been made to allocate a reasonable number of days—four, I believe—for Committee stage, and the suggestion is that it will be taken in Grand Committee. We need answers from the Government and the opportunity to explore exactly what they are trying to do. We also wish to explore a number of other issues, which I will touch on in my relatively brief remarks—they will be added to at the end of the debate by my noble friend Lord Hunt. The issue involves deaths in custody, which, the Minister will be aware, was a concern of my honourable friends in another place. Is it right that, for example, the Prison Service, the police or, for that matter, any other provider of lawful custody—whether they be young offender institutions, those responsible for children in care, local authority secure units or secure mental health units—should be exempt from a corporate manslaughter charge for a death that could be attributable to their actions? We will table amendments on that and look forward to hearing what the Government have to say. The second issue, which relates to Clause 4, involves military activity. As I understand matters, the Armed Forces are quite rightly exempt from health and safety legislation. We are not sure whether anything should be done about that unless the proposal was limited merely to training. My honourable friend in another place said that it would be ““absurd”” if operational activities were covered, but it is worth exploring the case for the Bill’s application to training matters. Thirdly, there is the whole question of policing and law enforcement. I understand that police forces currently have a duty of care to their employees but not necessarily in relation to deaths that they may cause to others. One obviously thinks of the recent and very tragic killing of Jean Charles de Menezes. Although an individual officer could be liable under existing law to prosecution for such a killing, is it right that the force would be exempt under the Bill? I am sure that the noble Baroness will explore that issue with us in Committee. The noble Baroness also referred to the exclusion of partnerships and other unincorporated bodies. I appreciate that there are difficulties, which she referred to, in drafting measures to cover such bodies; however, there seems very little logic in this if the intention is to create a level playing field. It leaves quite a large potential loophole. What about, for example, the large architectural practice or partnership that grossly and negligently designs a building that collapses, with serious loss of life? I understand—the noble Baroness made this clear—that the Government will look at this; we await their amendments with considerable interest. We hope that we can see them sooner rather than later; I stress that in the light of the fact that Committee stage begins on our return on, I believe, 10 January. The same consideration applies to the amendments that the Government promised us on the whole question of sanctions. The noble Baroness touched on that and said that amendments would be tabled. We would like to see them immediately—as soon as the Bill has had its Second Reading—so that we have time to consider them over the Christmas rush. I hope that, when the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate comes to respond, he will be able to assure us that the amendments promised by his noble friend will be with us, as I said, sooner rather than later. Lastly, I want to touch briefly on the rather different treatment meted out by the Government to public and private bodies. In Clause 2, which concerns the meaning of ““relevant duty of care””, as I understand it—the noble and learned Lord the Lord Advocate will no doubt tell me that I have it wrong—the duties in paragraphs (a) and (b) of subsection (1) apply to both public and private bodies, whereas those under paragraph (c) seem to apply only to private ones. That seems an invidious distinction. I do not understand why public and private bodies should be treated differently, but no doubt the noble and learned Lord can explain that in due course. This is the last day before we break up. There are some 22 speakers on the Bill, and we greatly look forward to hearing them. I hope that we can look forward to a fairly busy and active four days in Committee and possibly an active Report stage after that. Following the speed with which the Bill was taken through the Commons, which was wholly unnecessary, I remind the noble Baroness that it is even more important than usual that we examine it with the customary care that we take over such legislation.