Consumers, Estate Agents and Redress Bill [HL]

I am aware of the passions that this issue raises, but if I am to be interrupted after every sentence I do not think that we will get very far. I shall attempt to answer the points raised by my noble friends and other noble Lords. First, the Welsh Consumer Council is part of the current NCC—so it is not formally separated. On the question of representations made by the Scottish Parliament and Welsh Assembly, both have been consulted on the proposals and are satisfied with the Bill as drafted. I move on to a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady O’Cathain. Territorial committees can be a mirror image if the council decides to delegate all its functions. We are leaving it to the council to decide those matters, together with the territorial committees. Scottish Water was not included in the Bill, although it may be considered to be included some time in future. The Bill provides that the consumer body for water in England and Wales will be consulted on from 2008. Amendments Nos. 1 and 2 establish the Scottish and Welsh consumer councils as decision-making bodies. They prejudge the nature of the functions that the Bill allows the council to delegate to the Scottish and Welsh consumer councils. Amendment No. 3 removes the power of the new National Consumer Council to add to the power of the territorial committees and establishes that the core functions of the council must be delegated to them. Amendment No. 13A requires the council to delegate core functions to territorial committees and removes its ability to exercise core functions in the areas for which the territorial committees are established. The effect would be to make the Scottish and Welsh consumer councils function separately and independent of the council, at least in the exercise of functions, and prevent the council taking action on a cross-territorial basis, which is the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Wilcox, and my noble friend Lord Borrie. That would represent a serious retrograde step and would compromise the power of the council to speak for consumers generally as the situation demanded on a cross-territorial basis. I believe that it is important that the new arrangements should promote a clear expression of consumer views and needs. That is best achieved by providing for the new body to take its own decisions on how best to balance the achievement of a clear voice for consumers with the need to take account of differences or of particular conditions that might prevail in Scotland or Wales. There is also a need to provide for flexibility to meet future developments. None of those objectives is best served by providing for three essentially independent consumer organisations. Amendment No. 4 obliges the council to consult the territorial committees before exercising one of its functions if it considered that persons within the territorial committee’s area would be affected. That could prove to be an onerous provision, which would stifle the council in the exercise of its functions. Amendment No. 5 provides that the council must take into account advice and information provided by a territorial committee. No provision is made in the Bill about the extent to which the council should take into account advice or information from territorial committees. However, given that the Bill establishes that the territorial committees have a statutory duty to provide that advice and information, it is unnecessary to make further provision about how the council should take it into account. I suggest that a duty to take something into account, no matter how strongly expressed, will not in itself make a significant difference. Amendment No. 13B requires the council to ensure that the territorial committees receive a sufficient share of resources to enable them to exercise their functions. A number of noble Lords raised the issue of funding, so I shall go into a little more detail. Separate committees, comprising a chair and members, will appointed to the Scottish and Welsh councils by the Secretary of State, and questions of funding should be left to negotiation between the council and the territorial committees. The proposed additional duty is not required. Funding from industry for the new NCC will be in line with the costs of the council in undertaking functions in those sectors. The overall budget of the new council will be agreed between the DTI and the new body as the budgets of Energywatch, Postwatch and the NCC are now. A question was asked about the funding of the Welsh and Scottish consumer councils. It comes from the National Consumer Council, and the Welsh and Scottish councils have no separate existence. Funding is agreed between the DTI and the NCC. All the main budget comes from the DTI. Amendments Nos. 20, 22, 25, 27, 28, 32, 33 and34 all amend the provisions relating to the preparation of forward work programmes by the council by providing for separate forward work programmes to be prepared by each of the territorial committees. The Bill is silent on forward work programmes and territorial committees, but it is open to the council and the new territorial committees to arrange how they go about the preparation of the forward work programme required of the council. It is a matter for the council. Amendments Nos. 35 and 36 remove the requirement for the council to send notice of its forward work programme to the Scottish and Welsh Ministers and insert a requirement for the territorial committees to consult separately, and with their appropriate devolved administrations, over individual forward work programmes. It is open to the council to devise with its territorial committees how best to consult on the activities and functions set out in its forward work programme. The amendment is unduly prescriptive. Amendment No. 37 requires each of the territorial committees to prepare an individual annual report in relation to their individual forward work programmes and to submit these reports to Scottish Ministers or Welsh Ministers, as appropriate. It is for the council to decide what to include in its annual report and how to publish information relating to the activities of territorial committees. For the reasons that I have given, I must resist all these amendments.