Police and Justice Bill

My Lords, I beg to move Motion A, That the House do not insist on its Amendment No. 36, in respect of which the Commons have insisted on their disagreement, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 36C and 36D in lieu. We return once again to the debate on the scheme of our law on extradition, specifically the provisions governing extradition to and from the United States of America. Since we debated this issue last week, the elected Chamber has again voted decisively and convincingly on this matter. Indeed, the margin by which the other place rejected this House’s amendment on forum more than doubled from 41 to 94 votes. That is a powerful message on which this House will want to reflect carefully. At this point I wish to say a few words about the government amendments passed by another place. We have tabled these purely out of procedural necessity to enable the matter to return to this House. They do not alter the Government’s position one iota. We cannot and do not agree with the amendments tabled by the Opposition and passed by this House in July. I want to ensure that there is no misunderstanding about the purpose and effect of these amendments. They include a sunrise provision. I must make it clear to the House that the Government are under no obligation to bring forward the resolution that would be required to bring the new clauses into force and, moreover, have no intention of doing so. Although it is open to others to bring forward a resolution, the Government have no intention whatever of supporting any such resolution. Therefore, the House will not be surprised to learn that the Government cannot support Motion B1, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, which would remove the sunrise provision and bring the forum amendments into force on Royal Assent. In rejecting the Opposition’s amendments, I again thank the House, including all those on the Benches opposite who spoke so eloquently, for the support and encouragement that they gave me in my visit to Washington in July. A number of noble Lords voted for the Opposition’s amendments in July because they were concerned about the delay in ratifying the 2003 treaty. I assure noble Lords that I used all those salient points to assist me in my deliberations in Washington. Noble Lords wanted to give a clear message to our sister upper House in the United States that it had to meet its side of the bargain, as we had already in part delivered on ours in redesignating the United States under the 2003 Act. I say to the noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Goodhart, that I understand why they made the points that they did on forum. There are always two sides to an argument. It is incumbent on all of us to try to listen to the other side and seek to understand the concerns that are raised. I understand the concerns that were expressed by all in this House who supported that Motion. However, there is a balance to be struck between the interests of justice for the victims of crime and the rights of the accused. The Government believe that we have struck the right balance in designing our extradition arrangements. The noble Lords, Lord Kingsland and Lord Goodhart, believe that the arrangements on forum should be changed so that the balance is adjusted in favour of the accused. That is a perfectly respectable position for the noble Lords opposite to take, but it is not one which the Government can accept. To accept the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Goodhart, would add a ground for refusing extradition that is outwith the 2003 treaty with the United States and some 20 other bilateral treaties. Thus, whatever the strength of feeling on the Benches opposite, I respectfully suggest that that is not the way to conduct our international relations. Having negotiated a new treaty with the Government of the United States of America and pressed tirelessly for the Senate to give it its consent, we cannot now effectively change the terms of the treaty on the back of this Bill. We have known those terms for three years. The Opposition’s amendments would put us and the American Government in an unconscionable position. The amendments would, in effect, require the United States Government to renegotiate the 2003 treaty under duress. I know that this House would not want to put the Government or a close ally in that position. I will not repeat all the benefits to the United Kingdom of the new treaty, but we should not lose sight of the fact that it will close loopholes that have enabled suspects to escape justice for some considerable time. The House will, I am sure, be at one with me in wanting to ensure that this country secures the full benefits of the new treaty as quickly as possible, so that British victims of crime can see justice done. I need not remind the House that in 1972 the treaty took five years to ratify. This treaty has taken three. The arguments on evidence have been well rehearsed on both sides of the House, and it is no longer the central issue before us. The tests in the United Kingdom and the United States are not identical, but they are broadly comparable. We have never wavered from that position. So that leaves forum. As I have explained, a statutory provision making forum a ground for refusal in the Extradition Act could make us unable to ratify the treaty. We have, however, looked at an alternative. We are developing a non-statutory agreement with the United States in cases where a person could, even theoretically, be tried either there or here. The purpose of that agreement is fairness. By that I do not just mean fairness to the suspects, although of course that is vital, but fairness to the victims; in short, a balance. Future generations of prosecutors and victims would not forgive us if we missed this opportunity to improve and strengthen our provisions to combat cross-border crime. While acknowledging the concerns that have been raised, I urge this House, having done this country a great service in enabling us to bring about ratification, now to drop its insistence on the amendment and allow us to move forward and ratify the treaty, which is now ready to be so ratified by our American colleagues. Moved, That the House do not insist on its Amendment No. 36, in respect of which the Commons have insisted on their disagreement, and do agree with the Commons in their Amendments Nos. 36C and 36D in lieu.—(Baroness Scotland of Asthal.)