Draft Treasure Act 1996 Code of Practice (Second Revision) England and Wales

My Lords, I am grateful to both noble Lords who contributed to this short debate. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, for his comments about the advances we have made in allocating finds to their proper place, which, in many cases, is for the good of the nationin museums. I could expand his praise of recent developments in terms of museum attendance, the figures for which are so much higher than they were in the recent past. That reflects the fact that we now address ourselves to a nation that is much more aware of this legacy and of the enormous rewards than can be derived from our museums and that takes a keen interest in this subject. That is why the Government are committed to our strategy. Both noble Lords stretched the discussion on the code. I sought to emphasise not only that the code of practice is based on rationality, but also that there are administrative gains by effecting reductions in unnecessary expenditure, thereby releasing funds for necessary expenditure. I hope the noble Lords recognise that we are concerned about these matters, but they ranged much more widely than that. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, that we have a genuine problem with those who do not declare their finds. Those involved in detection give enormous help in rescuing treasure. They play their part in archaeological digs and engage in their own forays. Many honest citizens and true ensure that, as the noble Lord, Lord Renfrew, indicated, finds become available, and proper rewards go to those who have discovered them and to those on whose land they have been found. However, there is the hidden market and the substantial activity—although we are not able to quantify it with any accuracy—of those who do not follow the procedures that we expect them to with regard to such finds. That is a genuine problem. The British Museum, the Museums, Libraries and Archives Council and eBay have recently produced a partnership agreement so that eBay can be alerted to items on its site that may be unreported treasure finds. Of course not everything will be sold through eBay, but there is no doubt that this action will potentially close down the illicit activity of people advertising their finds when they have no right to be selling them. We are concerned to block that. I hear what the noble Lord, Lord Redesdale, suggests about greater activity by my department in pursuit of the illegal. That is not the direct responsibility of the DCMS. The Home Office is concerned with illegal acts. It is very much in the nation’s interest that we reduce such illegal activity to the absolute minimum, but the noble Lord will recognise that prosecuting authorities will act only on clear evidence that such activity has occurred. That is not easy to establish, as I am sure he will recognise. Both noble Lords indicated that departmental cuts might affect the efficiency with which the work is carried out. All departments are under the rubric of finding efficiency gains. The DCMS and its supporting agencies are in the same position as others. The noble Lord, Lord Renfrew—quite rightly, given his enormous interest in and massive contribution to this work over the years—says that this item of government expenditure and activity should be ring-fenced. He will not be surprised to hear me say that I believe that if I succumbed to such a concept—I am mindful that the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, is sitting opposite me and knows exactly where the economic pennies fall—there would be a wide range of representations in this House for ring-fencing of a similar kind. So I cannot promise that this evening, but I can undertake to ensure that efficiency gains will increase the efficiency of organisations and not damage process. I am entirely at one with both noble Lords that this work is of great benefit to the nation. The noble Lord, Lord Renfrew—he will not mind if I say it on this occasion—predictably raised the issue of the Sevso treasure. I did not think that I could stand at the Dispatch Box this evening and introduce an instrument with the word ““treasure”” in it without the Sevso treasure being mentioned. I assure the House that the Government have not been asked to grant an export licence. If they are, they will consider whether they have any discretion in the matter. Although we cannot guarantee where the Sevso treasure was found or who owns it, there are sufficient vigorous claims around for the Government to be unlikely to need to decide whether there should be an export order. I cannot go any further than that from the Dispatch Box—and the noble Lord will recognise why I cannot—but we obviously have a keen interest in the outcome if the Sevso treasure actually comes to market. There are great uncertainties about all aspects of the Sevso treasure. The nation is right—and I am glad that the noble Lord raised the matter this evening—to be to be alert to the problems attendant on that. I want to say how much I appreciate the constructive way in which both noble Lords discussed the issues this evening. Both of them have contributed an enormous amount to this work over the years. If I introduced the Motion modestly, it is because, as I am all too well aware, I personally have a great deal to be modest about, in comparison with the two noble Lords who have spoken on the issue. What is more, a guiding light of the department is to do as much good by stealth as we are able. The code of practice, which is in the public domain without stealth, will, I hope, do good. Accordingly, I commend it. On Question, Motion agreed to.