Police and Justice Bill

The noble Baroness was very generous in what she said at the start. I intended no hint of criticism at all; I was just trying to find the section. On the substance of the amendment, as I understood it, the noble Baroness made the point that the code of practice states that if the offender does not accept the conditions, then he will be prosecuted—not that there is anything in the code that for one moment suggests that you should not consider the offender’s resources in determining whether it would be appropriate to impose a condition. Indeed, as there is currently not a power to impose a fine, that issue does not arise. Let me be very clear: there is absolutely no question of our wanting to create one law for the rich and one law for the poor. From this side of the House, if I may say so, we certainly would not want to do anything of the sort. Prosecutors will have to take into account a range of factors in determining what conditions it is appropriate to impose, and that will be applied to everyone. But the overriding requirement will be that the conditions are proportionate, achievable and appropriate to the offence and the offender. Plainly, if an unduly high financial penalty were proposed for an offender who was not in a position to meet it, that would mean that the condition was neither achievable nor appropriate. I would not want to see one aspect of those considerations singled out in the Bill when the overriding question should be whether the conditions overall are proportionate, achievable and appropriate to the offence and the offender. On that basis, I cannot accept the amendments. However, I take the opportunity to underline that this is not something that an offender is compelled to accept—a point that we have to keep in mind throughout this whole debate. The noble Baroness said—and it is important to underline it—that the offender has a choice of whether or not to accept the conditions that are proposed. If the offender does not choose to accept those conditions, the matter will go to court, where the magistrates—we are talking about low-level offences and so it will be magistrates—will determine what penalty to propose. Of course, when magistrates propose penalties, they take all the circumstances into account. I know very well that magistrates look to an offender’s ability to pay in determining whether to impose a financial penalty and what it should be. So that will, in any event, condition the way that conditional cautions are offered as an alternative to prosecution. Lest there be any misunderstanding outside this Committee—I am sure that there is none within it—perhaps I may underline again that the current guidance to which the noble Baroness referred does not deal with financial penalties, because it has been written before such additions are possible. There is absolutely no question of that guidance saying, ““Please, if you find a rich person, let them off with a fine, but if it is a poor person, send them to court””. That is absolutely not the case and I want to stamp on that suggestion as hard as I possibly can.