Police and Justice Bill

I did not participate at Second Reading, but I am very glad to have an opportunity to say a word of support for this amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza. The principles behind the concern are clearly spelt out in the conviction of the Government against torture—I do not in any way question it; I am absolutely certain that it is a genuine and honest commitment. What lies behind the amendment is the repugnance of our whole society at the concept of torture. I always think that we are getting into difficult waters when we start quoting our obligations under conventions, because it begins to say, ““We are doing things because we have agreed to a convention which says that we must do them””. The convention is there because we believe these things are wrong. We need to go back to first principles and say that the conventions spell out our judgment on what is and is not acceptable behaviour. All of that is important, but there is one other point to be made. I hope that the Minister will forgive my repeating in this context an argument I have used before, but I passionately believe it. I believe that the battle to contain and to defeat terrorism is ultimately one to be won in hearts and minds. It is a battle to create a situation in which people are not open to manipulation and recruitment by militant extremists. The difficulty about rendition is that, in a way, with the best intentions, the Government may inadvertently compound the problem—the danger. They say that they are against torture but do not then take the opportunity to follow through, in a tangible, effective and demonstrable way, their commitment to get under control a situation in which torture may be happening. The failure to do so plays into the hands of the extremists, who say, ““There you are: double standards. All this is just empty rhetoric. When it comes to putting muscle into the commitment, it’s not there””. That is why the amendment is so important in the whole strategy to defeat terrorism and extremism.