Police and Justice Bill

I strongly support this amendment, to which I have added my name. My noble friend Lord Marlesford has indeed shown admirable persistence in bringing this matter forward for debate and he is absolutely right to do so. He has raised the matter on three previous occasions: in March 2002; in October 2003, during discussions on the Criminal Justice Bill, which was the first occasion on which I had the opportunity to take part in these important debates; and, most recently, during our debate on the Violent Crime Reduction Bill, just before the Whit Recess. The noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, is right to stress that the majority of firearms are legally held and responsibly used. None of us is trying to target legislation at those groups. My noble friend Lord Marlesford was also right to point out how real the fear of gun crime and the illegal use of guns is for people in some areas. It makes life unpredictable and, sometimes, unbearable. Firearms used for illegal purposes are the scourge of a generation in some areas. They are perceived to be a great threat. Even if that is not true in all areas, it is certainly perceived as such. Often it seems that guns are used on our streets by criminal gangs, often those trading in drugs or people-trafficking. They have no regard for their trading enemies’ lives and little if any regard for the safety of the public on the street. It is that by-product of their violence that we also seek to contain. The considerable merit of the amendment is the simplicity of the statement of the powers that my noble friend seeks to confer on the police. I know that there is always a tension in legislation and that one wants to achieve a clearly defined result by giving a simple body of powers—it gets more and more difficult to define such powers effectively so that one does not give rise to unintended consequences. I am aware that powers already exist that enable the police in certain circumstances to search people, but those powers are to be extracted from a number of legislative instruments. If the Government wish to give a clear message about crime—perhaps I should say ““continue to give””, because I know that they, especially the Minister, have been trying to give that message—my noble friend’s amendment would assist them to do precisely that. I am interested to hear that my noble friend has been in contact with ACPO and that he has had a positive indication from its members that they would welcome a clarified and simpler power. I appreciate the difficulties that police officers face in trying adequately to protect the public while at the same time responding rapidly to violent circumstances. It is the prevention of crime that is so important and that my noble friend is trying to achieve by his amendment. I know that the Government in other measures are seeking to prevent the carrying of weapons. We can see that in the Violent Crime Reduction Bill, in which they are giving teachers greater and welcome opportunities to search pupils for bladed weapons. I was interested to read in the press this weekend that Mr McNulty, the Minister in another place, is minded to see whether he can widen the provisions in the Violent Crime Reduction Bill that have already gone through Committee stage in this House. We await his proposals with interest. The Government will not find us churlish in responding to measures that they put forward that will properly give powers of search, whether to the police or to other responsible and appropriate bodies. It is right that we should focus our attention on my noble friend’s amendment for its positive attributes, but I also fully respect the view expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia. I am grateful to hear from him that he supports the principle behind the amendment and that he is keen to work with my noble friend to see what can be achieved by way of better drafting. I understand what he says with regard to his concerns about the power appearing to be too broad. I say ““appearing””, because I know that my noble friend’s intention is that the power would not be too broad and that there would not be leakage across the border of a defined area—I know that he is trying to get a carefully targeted area in which the police can operate. I am sure that my noble friend will be at one with the noble Lord on that point. Of course it is absolutely vital that in giving any new power to the police in sensitive times—and, indeed, on any occasion—we should ensure that we do nothing to inflame sensitivities in various communities about how they may be treated differently or disadvantageously as opposed to other communities. There is no way that one wants to upset community relations. On the other hand, the best communities are well regulated, secured and protected from people who carry weapons. I look forward to hearing the Minister’s response, even if she is not able to accept the amendment tonight. Given her past responses, I think that we are going to be disappointed, but I hope that instead of full disappointment we will receive some encouragement. I hope that we will hear from the Minister that she wants to engage in discussions over the summer so that we can by agreement come up with an amendment that can go in the Bill in the autumn to achieve on Report what my noble friend justifiably wants: the greater protection of the public.