Childcare Bill

My Lords, we had an excellent debate on this issue in Grand Committee when I said that we were extremely sympathetic to the objective that the noble Baroness seeks to achieve. I pointed out that from the beginning a key feature of the Every Child Matters agenda has been consultation with children who are affected. The original Green Paper in 2003 said:"““Real service improvement is only attainable through involving children and young people and listening to their views””." That has also been demonstrated in the creation of the Children’s Commissioner whose role is to give a national voice to all children and young people, especially the disadvantaged and the vulnerable. The noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, mentioned guidance, which has an important part to play. The current Sure Start children’s centre practice guidance published in November 2005 emphasises the importance of involving and consulting everyone who is benefiting, or could benefit, from a children’s centre, in particular parents and children themselves as well as those delivering services to families. The guidance goes on to explain how recent projects have shown how children under the age of five can be consulted effectively about the provision of services that they receive through, for example, the use of painting, music, cameras and story telling. It then gives a case study from the Coram family children’s centre, with the address of the website where further specialist guidance is available. As the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, said in Grand Committee and repeated today, valuable work is being undertaken in the voluntary sector to produce good practice guidance on consulting with children from organisations which have extensive experience in that area, particularly The Children’s Society, Mencap, the Thomas Coram Foundation and the National Children’s Bureau. However, this is mainly based on consulting children about day-to-day matters in childcare settings; for example, what they would like to eat or drink, when they should go outside or when they need a rest. It may include other matters about how the organisation of the setting impacts on them, but it would be unusual to go beyond issues of immediate concern to young children themselves, which I believe is the issue that we are for the most part talking about. We have given a clear assurance that the statutory guidance supporting the outcomes duty, under Clauses 1 to 5, will carry forward the commitment to listen to children. The issue is also a key feature of the early years foundation stage, which will emphasise the importance of professionals listening to all young children in their care and is in line with the current routine approach to early learning. Indeed, we have already rolled out nationally training on the Coram Listening to Young Children: a participatory approach materials, specifically to encourage early years practitioners to seek and act on children’s views. But, as I explained in Grand Committee, while the views of children aged under 5 are important and essential to service delivery, our difficulty with Amendment No. 6 is that it would place a duty on local authorities to consult young children about the strategic planning of services. As the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, just mentioned, there are practical difficulties in engaging this age group in meaningful formal consultation on issues such as where children’s centres should be located or whether parents are able to use the type of childcare that they prefer. My officials have met with the National Children’s Bureau and have explained why an amendment in this form cannot be accepted. We have given a commitment to work with it between now and Third Reading to see whether we can find a form of words that avoids the difficulties of the current amendment, while providing a meaningful proposition that meets the aims that we all share in terms of consultation with children under the age of five. I hope therefore that the noble Baroness will allow us time for that further work and will withdraw Amendment No. 6. Amendment No. 14 would place in the Bill a list of groups that local authorities must consult when carrying out their assessment duty under Clause 11. Let me stress again that we are agreed on the objective that she wishes to achieve. It is right and proper that key groups are consulted and involved. I can give a firm commitment that we will address that issue in the secondary legislation and guidance which will follow the Bill. The policy paper on the childcare sufficiency assessment duty, which we made available to Members of this House before Easter, makes a clear commitment that local authorities will conduct a thorough analysis of the childcare market in their area, identifying demand and matching that against supply in order to ascertain where there may be gaps and how these can be filled. Regulations and statutory guidance will set out what local authorities will need to do in order to achieve that. We have given a clear commitment that local authorities will have to consult parents, carers, children of all ages, providers, employers and local organisations to ensure that provision meets their needs. I hope that that provides suitable reassurance of our commitment to this cause. However, we are concerned that local authorities should have a duty to consult widely. We wish to pursue that matter in secondary legislation so that we have a full and complete list of people covered in that guidance. The list in Amendment No. 14 is a partial one. Most obviously it does not include children from the ages of five to 14 or disabled children up to the age of 18, and it does not also mention stakeholders such as employers or schools. We have given commitments in regard to particular groups that will definitely be specified in regulations, but the full list, which will be more extensive than the indications we have given so far, will be developed in partnership with local authorities and other stakeholders and will take into account views expressed during the consultation on the regulations—including, I should stress, the views expressed by the noble Baroness in this debate and in the debates in Grand Committee. In the light of those reassurances, I hope she will feel able to withdraw her amendment.