Legislative and Regulatory Reform Bill

I agree with every word that the right hon. and learned Member for Rushcliffe (Mr. Clarke) said, and I do not intend to add to his contribution. I shall, however, make a few points that have not been made in our debate. Our debate has focused on two amendments tabled by my hon. Friend the Member for Somerton and Frome (Mr. Heath) that I am happy to support. Amendment (c) to Government amendment No. 46 removes from the Government’s so-called veto—it is not, in fact, a veto—the requirement on the Committee to consider various things under clauses 2 and 3. New clause 14 attempts to provide a genuine parliamentary veto. I wish to make only one point about amendment (c). Yesterday, the Government were keen to tell us that their judicial review of ministerial discretion did not require the insertion of the word, ““reasonably””, in the Bill. That creates a problem, as what is sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. The word, ““reasonably””, does not appear in Government amendment No. 46, but ““considers”” does. That leaves scope for judicial review, as long as the problem of the Bill of Rights is overcome, as the hon. Member for Cannock Chase(Dr. Wright) said. The Government should therefore say categorically in reply to the debate that they do not intend the amendment to override provisions in the Bill of Rights that forbid the courts from interfering with what happens in the House. However, as the hon. Gentleman said, if they say that that statutory form of words is not intended to have legal effect, why have they introduced the provision, as there does not appear to be an enforcement mechanism? They are therefore left in an obvious dilemma: either they add words to the statute that do not have any effect, or they must do what should always be done in the circumstances—if one does not want words to have effect, one leaves the matter to convention or to the Standing Orders ofthe House, which are not justiciable. I fail to see why the Government have not taken that route. My main argument concerns new clause 14. The procedural protections against the misuse of the Bill are still required, because yesterday changes were made to the purposes for which the Bill can be used and to the subject matter to which it can apply. It can no longer be used to change itself, or to change the Human Rights Act 1998. However, we did not debate a far more important restriction—the proposal that the Bill should not be used to change any of the country’s constitutional arrangements. We did not discuss that amendment, so it is possible to use the Bill for those purposes. Yesterday, we examined the example of changes to trial by jury, which is not protected by the Human Rights Act. The Bill could be used to make dramatic changes to that right, and it is still possible to reform local government using an order under the Bill. There is therefore a great need for procedural protections, which is why we have proposed such protections in new clause 14 in addition to the so-called Committee veto, which, as everyone knows, is not a veto. The only argument against our proposal is that it will set a dangerous precedent. That argument suggests that we should not do the right thing now for fear that our slightly dim successors will not be able to tell the difference between the problem that we face and the problem that they face. Nevertheless, new clause 14 is not a departure, because there are such mechanisms, albeit with a slightly different construction, in Standing Orders. Standing Order No. 92 deals with what happens when a Bill has been considered by a Second Reading Committee or by the Scottish Grand Committee. The Report stage could take place in a Special Committee or in a Scottish Grand Committee. Standing Order No. 92 says that if a motion is introduced in the House to allow for that and 20 Members rise in their place and object,"““the Speaker shall declare that the noes have it.””" Standing Orders already provide a blocking mechanism on procedure that requires a fuller hearing of the matter—in this case, the Report stage—than would otherwise be the case. That is precisely what we are trying to do in new clause 14.