Children and Adoption Bill [HL]

My Lords, I would be despondent if the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Morris, were to leave the Bill feeling that all their ideas have been rejected and that the Government have not taken on board the genuine commitment of noble Lords opposite to trying to deal with some of the difficult issues that the Bill raises. Noble Lords will know that we began, certainly on the issues that I have been involved in, by trying to support the courts to ensure that people were not able to say, ““Regardless of the court’s decision, actually we are not prepared to make sure that the court decision is acted on””, and give the court some sanctions. The answers to many of the issues raised by the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Morris, lie beyond legislation. But I would not wish any noble Lord reading an account of our deliberations or any noble Lord present to feel that the Government had not listened or indeed that the noble Baroness had not achieved some of her objectives. The way in which the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has approached this has enabled me as a Minister to understand the issues more fully and to try to find solutions. They might not be the solutions that the noble Baroness would want, and she knows well that I have consulted widely to address those issues and I have taken advice where I felt it appropriate. I have not been able to accept the amendments, but I am seeking to address the concerns that the noble Baroness raised. I would not want her to go away this evening thinking that she has not been successful, because we will find ourselves better placed as a consequence of the amendments proposed by the noble Baronesses, Lady Walmsley and Lady Morris. The questions that have been raised are very important. How do we make sure that parents get the best possible information and the best possible guidance, advice and support long before they get to court that tells them about the kind of ways in which they could deal with the issues for their children? The noble Baronesses, Lady Pitkeathley and Lady Howarth, with their aeons of experience on these issues, know that it is difficult. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, knows that it is difficult to address all the issues around the age of a child. Does the child live near to dad or near to mum? Does the child play hockey on a Wednesday or football on a Thursday? Does the child have friends that it wants to see? Never mind the fact, as the noble Baroness, Lady Howarth, said, that the lives of children change constantly and they want to have fluctuating, variable arrangements that work well. As the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, knows from our discussions yesterday, with the previous draft of the amendment we were concerned that it would be left to civil servants—love them as I do—to decide what kind of arrangements might work. That does not work for me and I think that it would be a job too far for them to try to achieve that. The noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, has been successful in this area in that we have committed ourselves to ensuring that the information that we give parents is better formulated so that people know what has worked for other parents—that is a critical element—and what might be appropriate for the child, bearing in mind the arrangements that are in place. I have no difficulty with that, and it is why the pilot parenting plans are being redrafted by experts from outside the department in the voluntary sector who really understand these issues. That will enable us to get a better sense of the situation and to give that information to parents, who often struggle because they may not communicate well with each other about what works best for their child. I am very keen that we do that as well as we can. We want to ensure that we offer parents as much guidance and support as we possibly can. As the noble Baroness may know, we are looking to gain a better picture of what happens with the people involved in contact disputes, both in and out of the courts. That has become a priority for us as a result of the way in which both opposition parties have pushed us to think more carefully about these issues. I know, too, that the noble Baroness, Lady Walmsley, is, and always has been, particularly concerned, through reference to the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, to ensure that the child’s voice is heard. Of course, ordinary parents do not even know that the convention exists. I think that we live in a slightly rarefied world, but it is an important issue. I know that the noble Baronesses, Lady Howarth and Lady Pitkeathley, are particularly keen on that subject in the work done within CAFCASS. How do we ensure that the child’s voice is heard? It is heard through their parents where that works well, through the work of CAFCASS and, where appropriate, through representation by a guardian or a solicitor under Rule 9.5 of the family proceedings rules. But the noble Baroness is right that we cannot be complacent about this. We have commissioned research by Cardiff University to look at whether that rule is being used effectively and whether it is serving children well. The research also involves asking children what they feel about being represented. I hope to be able to inform the noble Baronesses, Lady Morris and Lady Walmsley, of the results of that research very shortly. We want to take very seriously the issues raised by the noble Baroness. I do not need to go through in detail why, in my view, the amendment does not work. It does not work because I cannot work out how we would implement her proposal in a way that made sense. As the noble Baroness knows, I am concerned about the relationship between the state and parents. However imperfect the family, it is important that we let the family get on, and it is critical that we improve the support that we offer people. I agree with the noble Baroness about the extremists. But I also say to her that throughout this process many of the groups—particularly the fathers’ groups—have greatly helped us to understand the issues that are of concern to them. In a sense, it was their work and that of the courts that led us to introduce the Bill as a means of dealing with some of their concerns. I end by supporting what the noble Baroness, Lady Morris, said. The problem is that every case is different and cases have lots of similarities. We have sought to recognise that, with support, guidance, help and advice, families must be allowed to determine the arrangements that work for the circumstances of the child and the adults, and that is the approach of the courts. They say, ““Of course every case is different. We start with an open mind but we’ll find lots of similarities with other cases as we go through””. So it is important to offer guidance and support while recognising that a child’s life and a family life may be different. Therefore, we would find it very difficult to do what the noble Baroness wants. However, I would not want any noble Lord who listens to this debate, or reads the record of it, to be under any illusion that we have not understood the principal point that the noble Baroness is making. We intend to act on it not through the legislation, for the reasons that I have given, but by making absolutely sure that we improve the quality of the advice and support. We shall do so not just through government but through the support of the voluntary sector, advice organisations, solicitors and barristers. That will enable better decisions to be made by families in supporting their children as effectively as they can. On that basis, I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.