Charities Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister. As ever, he put his case forcefully. I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Swinfen for his support, and in particular to my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern. He put his finger on it directly. The Minister talks about a broad approach and broad control, but paragraph 5(3) of Schedule 1 is not about broad approach and broad control. It is about specific approach and specific control. It is about other staff requiring,"““the approval of that Minister as to their terms and conditions of service””." I do not accept that that is the proper argument or an argument with foundation. The Minister also raised the question of pensions, and we have been around that track before. One of our early amendments, with which the Government were equally unhappy, dealt with pensions. The Government were not happy about that then, and certainly that provision could easily be reinserted to address the pension issue. We should not allow the pension position to drag us away from the central issue this afternoon, which is that we want to see the Charity Commission properly independent. The Minister accepts that this is important—we were agreeing on it in the earlier amendment—but he has not provided us with an adequate answer. I understand that my amendment is too direct. What the noble Lord, Lord Phillips, has tabled is considerably more silky, and attacks the one remaining plank in the Minister’s argument. I will therefore withdraw my amendment, but I hope the noble Lord will have a more robust approach. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.