Equality Bill [HL]

My Lords, both those points are valid, and if I had more time I would love to debate them with the noble Lord. In order not to duck the issue, I shall make two quick responses. Although human rights recognise in some cases the need for and possibility of positive discrimination, I have seen several cases in the United States and other jurisdictions where they have been so interpreted—either in the shape of human rights or as they are constitutionally embedded—to rule out any form of positive discrimination. The Bakke case in the United States would be one. On the other question of groups, I am tempted to make one quick point. The noble Lord conceded that, in the forms of legislation that we have had, we take account of membership of a group. Although it may not amount directly to equality between the groups, it amounts to saying that the membership of a group is   significant in deciding whether the principle of equality is realised. That is something to which human rights discourse, which is culturally and politically neutral, would not be terribly sympathetic. In certain interpretations, it could be; in others, it might not be. My worry is that we should not simply assume that all those in charge of the commission would invariably take the view that some of us take. I can go through my third point briskly. Much of the advisory and case work in the fields of race and gender is done at grassroots level. The CRE, for example, would be entirely helpless without the race equality councils and the work they do locally. We therefore need to build up local expertise and think in terms of training people at the local level. As far as I can see, unless I am totally obtuse, the Bill says little about either building up networks of organisations throughout the country or providing resources for building up this kind of expertise. The fourth point concerns the nature of public authority, about which much has been said. The definition of public authority is narrow, for all kinds of reasons—partly because of the case law, and partly, unless I am totally mistaken, because the concept of public authority in the past 20 years has tended to develop predominantly in relation to ideas of equality. Once we bring in the question of human rights, the nature of public authority may require a wider definition. For example, the noble Baroness, Lady Miller, talked earlier about private and voluntary providers of public services, such as residential care providers. It is important that we think in terms of these organisations, private as they are, being required to deal with questions of equality and human rights. My final worry is about the Commission for Racial Equality. I say this with some trepidation, because this raises questions that are not just constitutional but political. For all kinds of reasons, the CRE has decided to join the new commission a couple of years after it has been set up. Although I can understand why it wants to take that line, I do not entirely sympathise with its reasons for wanting to do so. My own experience is that those who come in at the beginning are able to shape the nature, the structure and the ethos of an organisation. Those coming in late are usually confronted with a fait accompli, and therefore they are not able to change very much unless they shout, and in the process make themselves disagreeable. Take, for example, our own experience of Britain in the European Union. Had we been there at the beginning, I am not sure the common agricultural policy would have taken the shape it did, and it would not have taken us 35 long years, my dear Minister, to try to resolve those issues. We cannot do anything about this issue, however, as it is for the CRE to decide. I want to finish with two thoughts. First, although at one level the CRE speaks for ethnic minorities, it is not the only spokesman for them. It might be useful to elicit what ethnic minorities in general think about this. Secondly, even if the CRE comes in late, I hope it will be involved, at least informally, in the planning and deliberations of the new commission.