Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill [HL]

My Lords, I start by echoing my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies and thanking and congratulating everybody on the level of contributions that we have had to this debate in the past hour or so. It is an indication of how interesting the debate has been that so many questions have been asked. Listening to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, I felt question overload developing; I stopped counting at the fifteenth question. As it is a beautiful evening and as people will not wish me to speak for 40 minutes to answer all the questions that have been raised—and I can hear my noble friend Lord Rooker saying ““Thank goodness for that””, as he is waiting to deal with three orders—I plan to go quickly through the contributions and then write to everybody with detailed answers to the very many questions. I thank everybody who has spoken in this debate. The contributions have been both terrifically helpful and extremely interesting. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of   Conwy, gave a typically polished contribution, welcoming the Bill and raising a number of issues that we will return to in Committee. We discuss the period of office yet again—perhaps we could just agree now that it should be the same as we agreed for the ombudsman and get something out of the way. The discussion raised some interesting questions which we will come back to. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, asked so many questions that I lost count—as did the people in the Box—but we have answers to all of them. He was asking about regulations and in addition to the memorandum that we will be submitting to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, we shall make available before Committee stage a note on the intentions of the Assembly in respect of the exercise of subordinate legislation powers in the Bill. The noble Lord asked why so much of the detail is being left to regulations—he will see that the draft regulations and the Bill’s provisions relate to an area of law which is devolved to the National Assembly for Wales. It is therefore appropriate for the powers to make delegated legislation to be vested in the Assembly. All subordinate legislation subject to this procedure is debated in plenary and not taken, as in the Commons, to a Standing Committee. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, asked if any provider of regulated services will fall outside the scope of the commissioner. The providers of regulated services are subject to the remit of the Care Standards Inspectorate for Wales. The purpose of the commissioner is not to duplicate the work of the inspectorate. Private providers could not be added to the list of persons in Schedule 2 as they are not public bodies. The noble Lord asked if it would be better to extend the remit of the public services ombudsman for Wales. The focus of the ombudsman is to deal with maladministration. The focus of the commissioner is much wider; he will be a champion with much wider powers. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, and others asked why is there no commissioner for England and why we need one for Wales. The UK Government do not want, at present, to establish a UK commissioner for older people. There will be a new powerful UK Cabinet sub-committee on ageing policy which will be chaired by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. Its remit will be to drive forward the UK ageing strategy as described in Opportunity Age. A number of questions have been asked about the funding and the costs. We will return to these in Committee where I hope we may have some more accurate information. The size of the relevant client groups is similar for both commissioners. There are 674,600 people aged 60 and over in Wales and there are approximately 700,000 people under 18. The functions and powers proposed for the Commissioner for Older People closely mirrors those of the Children’s Commissioner for Wales. It therefore makes sense that this proposed level of funding represents an appropriate estimate and that is why we are comparing the two costing centres. The noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, asked how we will ensure that the commissioner can follow   up on issues on which he has issued guidance to ensure that the bodies concerned comply with it. The commissioner is empowered to issue best practice guidance under Clause 11. Using his supplementary powers the commissioner would also be able to publish this guidance, thus making it widely available to service users and interested parties. This in turn will help to raise expectations and drive up standards. Finally—that is, finally as far as I am concerned, but not as far as the noble Lord, Lord Roberts, is concerned—the noble Lord asked the question of how we ensure that joint working is enabled with the CEHR and duplication is avoided. I have a six-page answer to that question which I have absolutely no intention of reading out. I shall pass it on to the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, after the debate. My noble friend Lord Rowlands welcomed the Bill, for which I am extremely grateful. He asked a number of questions, and was praised by the noble Lord, Lord   Livsey of Talgarth, for the perspicacity of those questions. Briefly I shall deal with one or two of them. The noble Lord asked, as my noble friend Lady Gale did, about the appointments procedure. The Assembly Government’s Commissioner Advisory Group felt strongly about that. It considered that the model of involving children and young people in the appointment of the Children’s Commissioner represented good practice, and that it ought to form the basis for the procedure to be adopted for the selection and appointment of the Commissioner for Older People. It recommended that the appointment process,"““should ensure that the successful candidate has a real understanding of, and empathy with, older people in Wales””." The group also recommended that it should meaningfully involve older people in the selection. We can give reassurance on that point. My noble friend Lord Rowlands asked about the relationship of the commissioner with directors of social services. Local authorities appear in Schedules 2 and 3. The commissioner will be able to review the way in which social services directors discharge their functions and the arrangements that they make for advocacy, complaints and whistle-blowing. My noble friend also asked about non-devolved matters. We recognise that a range of reserved issues are important to older people in Wales, including pensions, taxation, law and order and benefits. The commissioner will therefore be able to make representations to the National Assembly for Wales about any matter relating to the interests of older people in Wales, whether it is a devolved or non-devolved issue. The commissioner will be able to issue guidance on best practice,"““in connection with matters raised relating to the interests of older people in Wales””." That position is entirely consistent with the current constitutional context and mirrors the current arrangements for the Children’s Commissioner. Using this Bill to bring about changes to the devolution settlement would be outwith its scope and entirely inappropriate. I am extremely grateful to my noble friend Lady   Gale for speaking so warmly in favour of the Bill. She raised the question of how it was decided that an older person was one who had reached the age of 60. The Assembly advisory group was undecided about what the definition of older people should be. It saw merit in setting the age for qualifications for the commissioner’s help at 65, or 50, in line with the strategy for older people, and recommended that those two options and a compromise of 65, with discretion to help those aged over 50, should be put to public consultation. It was put to public consultation, and the listening assembly decided to set the age at 60. That pragmatic solution was agreed. My noble friend Lady Gale also referred to the briefing of Help the Aged. Clause 12 sets out the commissioner’s powers of entry. That power would enable him or her to enter any premises other than a private dwelling to interview an older person accommodated or cared for there in connection with carrying out his function of review or discharge of function. I believe that we are all grateful to my noble friend Lord Prys-Davies for his contribution. He raised a number of issues which I shall deal with well before the Committee stage. He expressed concern that the commissioner cannot pursue with UK departments issues that are not devolved. We recognise that a range of reserved issues are important to older people in Wales, including pensions, taxation and benefits. The   commissioner will therefore be able to make representations to the National Assembly for Wales on matters relating to the interests of older people in   Wales. I mentioned in my opening remarks the arrangements made between the Wales Office and the Children’s Commissioner; I reiterate that those arrangements will apply in this case too. My noble friend also asked about the funding question, and whether £1.5 million is adequate. We shall be looking very carefully at that over the next few weeks and will hope to come to Committee with some more positive figures, although they will be linked to the cost of the Children’s Commission, as we believe is appropriate and sensible. My noble friend also asked what Clause 9 was intended to cover. The Assembly will make regulations to allow the commissioner to examine the cases of particular older people in Wales in connection with his functions. The commissioner’s power can extend to examining the case of someone who is no longer an older person in Wales—that is, somebody who has passed away before the Bill comes into force. The commissioner may also make payments to persons who attend or provide information, explanations or assistance to him in his examinations. My noble friend also asked in what circumstances Clause 9 would operate, and whether it would require a reference from the older person. A complaint will need to be made to the commissioner to initiate an examination. However, when the older person is not able to make the complaint, it may be made by someone on his behalf. That will be dealt with in regulations. That was a quick run-through of some of the questions that I have been asked. However, as I said at the start, I am conscious that there were a huge number of questions, all of which will be answered promptly. I am grateful to all noble Lords for their constructive approach to this Bill, and for not giving me a hard time—as they might well have done—on the basis that we are having a Second Reading of this Bill on the day before it is discussed in National Assembly for Wales.