Commissioner for Older People (Wales) Bill [HL]

My Lords, I am pleased to be taking part in this Second Reading debate, partly because the   Labour Party included the establishment of a commissioner for older people as a commitment in its   manifesto for the 2003 elections to the Welsh Assembly. Through the Assembly, we have seen that the people of Wales want the commissioner. When the Bill for the Children’s Commissioner for Wales was debated in your Lordships’ House, we felt that it was good to be able to say that Wales was the first country in the UK to have such a commissioner. The Children’s Commissioner for Wales was so well received that we now have children’s commissioners in the rest of the United Kingdom. We can be proud of the fact that children’s commissioners started in Wales and are such a good thing that everybody wants one. I am sure that that will happen when we establish our Commissioner for Older People. We had a briefing meeting last week in which my honourable friend the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State in the Wales Office, Nick Ainger, said that the Commissioner for Older People would be the first in the UK and probably the first in the world. That is why we are finding our way on a number of issues. There is no model: we are developing our own in Wales. We can all feel proud of the fact that Wales is once again leading the world. A number of noble Lords have said that Wales has an ageing population. A higher proportion of the population in Wales is over the age of 60 than in the rest of the UK, and the number of people over the age of 85 is about one-third higher. With people living longer, there will be a need for care and support services to enable older people to lead independent lives as far as possible. As other noble Lords have said, we have particular problems in Wales. Research has shown that, for some older people in Wales, poor housing, poverty and poor nutrition are particular concerns. But, as noble Lords have also said, on the plus side, people are living longer, and that is something about which we can all rejoice. With a commissioner for older people, we will be able to deal with many of the issues relating to older people and assist them to lead independent lives. In the briefing last week, the Deputy Minister responsible for older people in the Welsh Assembly Government, John Griffiths, said the commissioner would be,"““A champion and a strong voice for older people””" We used a similar remark when we were debating the Children’s Commissioner, who has proved to be a champion and a strong voice for the children of Wales. If the Commissioner for Older People can be seen in that light, it can only be for the good. The Bill has much support in Wales from the charities and voluntary groups that provide for older people. Noble Lords have already spoken about the definition of what it is to be old, and we could debate it for some time. In the context of the Bill, the definition of ““older person”” is someone aged 60 or more. We know that sometimes the age can be as young as 50 or as old as 75. I can understand the difficulties of determining when one become an older person as far as the Bill is concerned. I am sure that all noble Lords have received the same briefing from the Law Society. It says:"““A more pragmatic definition should be adopted to allow the commissioner discretion to help people aged 50 and over””." It gives the reason that,"““This would be particularly relevant in employment matters for people who have taken early retirement, and in health matters, for example those suffering the early onset of dementia and physical disability””." As other noble Lords have mentioned, we have precedents in Wales for defining older people as 60, such as the free bus pass and free swimming schemes. There are also a few other precedents that the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Llandudno, mentioned. I am sure that we will discuss the matter later in Committee. Can the Minister say why older people are defined as those over the age of 60 and whether any thought has been given to having some flexibility in the definition? There are concerns that there could be some overlap with the Commission for Equality and Human Rights, which will be established by the Equality Bill that will have its Second Reading in your Lordships’ House tomorrow. With that new commission dealing with age discrimination, the roles of the two bodies will need to be clearly defined. As we go through this Bill and the Equality Bill, we may be able to work out what the overlap is and how we can clearly define matters. I hope that, if there are any difficulties, we will be able to resolve them. I would like to raise Clause 12(1)(a) with the Minister. Concerns have been raised about it by Help the Aged in Wales. The clause provides that the commissioner will have the power to,"““enter any premises, other than a private dwelling, for the purpose of interviewing an older person accommodated or cared for there””." It is not clear whether the term ““private dwelling”” includes care settings owned and operated by the independent or private sector or refers specifically to the individual older person’s private residence. If the Minister could clarify that the definition of ““private dwelling”” meant the individual older person’s private residence, it would help to alleviate the concerns expressed by Help the Aged in Wales. We all understand that the Bill is modelled on the legislation for the Children’s Commissioner. When the Children’s Commissioner was appointed, children were involved in his appointment, as the noble Lord, Lord Roberts of Conwy, said. I believe that children interviewed the candidates and said who they thought was the best one. I know that we are in the early stages of this Bill, but does the Minister think that it would be a good idea for that model to be used and for older people in Wales to have a say in the appointment when the interviews take place? It would be great if that could happen. We have the makings of a good Bill, even though, as some noble Lords have said, it is bit premature. Nevertheless, it is to be welcomed. It has been welcomed throughout Wales by the charities and voluntary groups that support older people. Like other noble Lords, I look forward to reading the analysis of the consultation, which ends today, that the Welsh Assembly has been conducting on the Bill. I am sure that that consultation will assist and inform us during the passage of the Bill through your Lordships’ House.